Hayes Waring  00:00

Hello, this is Hayes Waring and I'm talking to Kathleen Hanna for the Olympia Music History Project. Today is Saturday, February 4, it's 12:17 in the Pacific. Hi, Kathleen.

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Kathleen Hanna  00:11

Hayes, how's it going?

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Hayes Waring  00:14

It's going pretty good. Wow, this is, there's a lot to talk about here. I guess I'd like to start at the beginning. Why did you move to Olympia?

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Kathleen Hanna  00:26

I moved to Olympia when I was 17 to get away from my family, but also to go to The Evergreen State College. The only college I applied to because I had horrible grades and a lot of absenteeism. And a lot of, I was suspended from school a lot. But I had really high SAT scores. And so I thought maybe Evergreen would be a place that would let me in. And it was like cheap enough that we could afford it. Back then they had an agreement with, I'd lived in Oregon, and so they had an agreement with Oregon that a student from Washington would get in-state tuition in Oregon and in exchange for Oregon's, so I mean, it was basically the first year was $1,000, a quarter. And the second year was, the third year, by the third year was only $600 a quarter. So it was like inexpensive enough that I could go and is really my only option. But they rejected me at first. And so I got a ride up. And I just kind of went into the Admissions office without an appointment and was like, you have to let me in. And I gave, I did what I call it, like I just did, like, I don't know, I just I watched a lot of old movies, or movies when I was a kid. And so I was always related to the person who would be like, “just give me a chance!” Like I I, throughout my life, there's been lots of moments where I was told no, and I would just be like, I'm just gonna go in there and pull the person's heartstrings and like, be manipulative and get them to do what I want. So I can, because I really wanted to go to college, and I really wanted to go somewhere away from my parents. So I went in and I gave my sob story. And finally the woman relented, I think she just wanted to get rid of me. Wanted me to stop talking. And so that was actually the beginning of my spoken word career right there, was in that office, like, you should let me in. I've got great SATs, you know, I moved every year since I was three or every three years since I was three. And, you know, I've never been able to deal with regular school because it's just a game and this school is, you know, the one that helps students like me, and I'm going to be the success story. And, you know what I mean? So yeah, they let me in there, just like “if you make one false move.” I was on probationary status, which, like, how bad do you have to be to be on probationary status at Evergreen State College? Like,

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Hayes Waring  02:59

Yeah, what does that even mean for a first-term student?

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Kathleen Hanna  03:04

And then like, if I missed a class or an assignment, I was out.

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Hayes Waring  03:09

That's weird. 

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Kathleen Hanna  

Yeah. 

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Hayes Waring  

Mm hm. But cool. I'm glad that you made it.

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Kathleen Hanna  03:15

Me too. Me too.

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Hayes Waring  03:17

Um. I have a notebook of things to ask you. But what were your, what were some of the- who were the some of the people that you met in Evergreen? And did you have any, like early Northwest influences before? You know, like, I guess we can talk about music and stuff like that at first. I guess. Is that too big of a question?

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Kathleen Hanna  03:39

No, it's pretty easy. Like, I started going to the Satyricon, Pine Street Theater Starry Night when I was in high school. And seeing, you know, like I saw The Bangles. Which was, it actually, you would think it'd be this big experience like, oh, girl band, but like, they did a Stones cover and I was really into the Stones. And I thought they did it terribly. And I was really mad. But no, like, I saw bands like The Fixx. And there was this band Theatre of Sheep in Portland that was really big. We went to see like every show of theirs. Like, there's a lot of getting wasted in my, you know, 15 to 17 year old reality. And we went to Satyricon, and one great thing about Portland was they had all-ages shows, and they always accommodated things, like Satyricon had like a backdoor that the kids could come through so that you couldn't get to the bar. And they were always like, trying to work around the laws to make it so that kids could come which was really great. We really loved this local band, The Miracle Workers. I wasn't aware of The Wipers at all, which is kind of a bummer. And then went to a bunch of punk shows and I probably saw like, you know, Corrosion of Conformity. Like I don't even know if you consider them punk. I don't know if I do either but, you know, saw tons of punk shows that like, I don't even know who they were because I was just like, drunk. But I do remember, it's just me and my friend Tiffany and Stacy at a lot of shows. And I remember being spit at by a band, who was like doing kind of the macho Sex Pistols version of punk or what they thought punk was. And as you know, we already got groped in the pit all the time and stuff. And it was sort of like, that was my final straw. That, and then the thing of like, the SHARPs, [Skinheads Against Racial Prejudice,] fighting the skinheads, and then it got really bad when speed core came in, and speed metal, because then like it was the Long Hairs, the SHARPs and the Skins. And they all were vying for the front space. And they were all like, “This is mine. This was mine first”. That was the whole thing like, “This is mine first”. And I was like, Oh, wow. I just remember being like, I really don't belong here. Because like, I'm into the music and the anger and the energy. And these people are ruining it. For me, because they're just having these petty squabbles, like it just seemed like it was all about boys fighting each other. And it was so boring and ruining the show and then getting spit at by a band. I was like, I don't know, I didn't really have an epiphany, like, this isn't punk. But there was something in me that was just like, Man, I gotta go. All these dudes fighting each other all the time. Can't see the band. If I do get close, I get spit on or grabbed,  somebody grabs my ass. You know, there are definitely moments where the punk scene was awesome. And it felt like we'd be slam dancing and like everybody was helping each other out. And I would just feel like one of the boys or whatever. And then there were the other times where you're getting groped blah blah blah and spit on and I'm like, this isn't there's something in me that was like, this is not punk. Like, how unwelcome can I possibly feel at this place? Like I didn't, you know, in some cases, I had to get a fake ID and it's like, I didn't get a fucking fake ID to come here and be spit on. And so I started going to reggae shows exclusively at the Pine Street Theatre. And then that's basically all I went to see. For the rest of my high school career besides like, you know, the occasional bigger band, like I'm trying to think of like Echo and The Bunnymen or something like that. And I went to see like Aerosmith and the Divinyls at the big arena. On a date. Oh, and I went on a date to see Men At Work. Oh my god, it was like the worst date but um, yeah, so I was pretty much just into reggae. And um recording stuff off of, is it KCMU the station, I'm thinking that’s New York. There's a college radio station in Seattle, that I would listen to because I moved to Bellevue Washington right before I went to college, so I could work at a pizza restaurant and earn money… it was like ‘89 or something. And so I would tape the reggae show that they had once a week on my cassette player, and then just like, play it all week. And then like, you know, if I ever had money, which I rarely did, go and buy records from the bands that I liked, that were on there. So and then I, I feel like I carried on that tradition when I moved to Olympia and I would listen to KAOS. And I would like, you know, be doing my homework, listening to KAOS. Or at night before I went to bed, I would listen to KAOS. And if I heard a song, I liked it, like write down the band name. And then, you know, try and get the record. So that's how I really learned about music. It wasn't as much from other people as it was from the radio from from like, you know, independent radio.

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Hayes Waring  08:50

You remember the shows that you listened to on KAOS?

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Kathleen Hanna  08:55

No, no, I just like had it on all the time. 

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Hayes Waring  09:00

Oh, very cool. So I guess I really want to know about your poetry and spoken word performance art, you know, where did where did that come from? That was, that was so big for… I guess that's a big interest of mine. Where did that start?

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Kathleen Hanna  09:19

I mean, I think it really started with Slim Moon, who ran Kill Rock Stars. And he came up to me at the Smithfield Cafe, and was like, saw me writing in my journal and said, “I do poetry readings. And do you write poems?” And I was like, Yeah, and I did. I really did. I made written poetry all through high school. And that's how I got into writing lyrics, was by turning my poems into songs. So that was sort of what I did. I wrote poetry. I wrote like weird prose. Like, I was always a journaler. So I was always writing in my journal. Yeah. And Slim just came up and asked me and he's like, “There's never any women at these poetry things I do. Would you be interested in reading at one?” And I was like, oh, yeah, sure. Like, you know, you know what Olympia is like, it's like, really cool that people are always like, “Let's make something happen,” you know. And so I just was like, fake it till you make it. Yeah, sure. And then, of course, I totally freaked out. Like, was so scared. And I think the one of the first things we did was at the Fringe Festival at the Capitol Theater. He would do an event every year there, a spoken word event. And I did that with him. And then we sort of became like partners, like we started putting on spoken word events together. And we read it in Seattle a couple times, which he would invite me to stuff, and we just started collaborating. Like I would make visuals for his, because I was a photography student, and I worked in the photo lab as my job, my work study job. So I would make like, weird slides. Like we did a performance piece called, we did this poem called “Pussies and Trucks”, and it was sort of about masculinity, like about binary gender identities. And I think he was more of the reader and I ran the slide projector, and it was just pictures of pussies and trucks. With him reading, and me like commenting sort of on the side. So, I could really credit Slim for getting me to do that, you know. It has nothing to do with Evergreen. That's the thing that's really interesting to me is like, none of it has anything to do with Evergreen.

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Hayes Waring  11:46

It's a common tale.

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Kathleen Hanna  11:49

Yeah. It was all the kids downtown who were making things happen that… I was actually very lucky that the dorms are full when I got there, even though I'd paid for one. And so I got put in these apartments called Woodland Green. 

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Hayes Waring

Oh cool.

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Kathleen Hanna 

Well, yeah, I mean, except for the time the cops came and like, pulled a dirty, bloody diaper out of the dumpster. And I was like, I want to get out of this building. It was just really, there was just a lot of like, violent stuff up there. And it was like, you could hear everything through the walls, and the college was ripping us off. It was just whatever. But the good thing was, um, I lived off campus. And so I started my college career off campus. And then I never, I only went on to campus out of necessity for like, one seme[ster] or one quarter or whatever. But that actually, that supposedly bad thing ended up being good, because then we were like, Oh, well, instead of living in crappy dorms for really expensive. Why don't we all rent a house. And then I started walking down to the Smithfield. And that's where I met Mikey, Mike Nelson, or Mike Dees from Fitz of Depression. But I actually met him. He was the first person I met, and he was 15. And I was 17. And he might have even been 14. And he came up to me and was like, “I'm Tattoo Mike Nelson. I'm in a band called Fitz of Depression.” He was like, the mayor of Punk Town, you know what I mean? And like, he was like, the only person in the music scene I knew for a couple years.

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Hayes Waring   

Oh, wow. 

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Kathleen Hanna  

The spoken word thing came after that, it was like, I lived there for a couple years. Um, going to school. And I didn't know anything about the Olympia music scene. I just was friends with this kid. And we just like helped each other out. And he really introduced me to a bunch of bands and like, encouraged me and stuff.

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Hayes Waring  13:53

Oh, wow. 

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Kathleen Hanna  

Yes.

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Hayes Waring

Was Fitz of Depression very active at the time?

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Kathleen Hanna  13:59

I think when I first met him, they might have been more of an idea than a band. I'm not sure he was giving tattoos with his little tattoo gun, and he had a briefcase. I think he kind of had a crush on me a little bit, not to toot my own horn. But it was like, I found out later from his friend Craig [Becker], the drummer for Fitz, that Mikey had a crush on me. Um. But we were just friends for like, you know, un- until he passed away, but he was like a little kid. You know what I mean? Like, but it's not like I was so much older because I was 17, but I think he lied to me and said he was like, 16 and then he was like, “Okay,”

Hayes Waring

“I'm 15, I'm 14,”

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Kathleen Hanna

“I'm 14” or whatever. But yeah, I used to like we were just friends and we helped each other out. And if you needed a place to crash, you could crush on my couch and like, we got wasted a lot together like me and his friends and I'd be like the girl there. You know what I mean? It would be like two dudes and me. Um, and just listening to music, listening to punk music, listening to Kiss, stuff like that. But I wasn't aware of K, I wasn't aware of any of us, if I wasn't in the scene, except for like, the guys that Mikey hung out with, you know, and then when Fitz started being more active, like I made a record cover for them, and I would take pictures of them. I called myself their manager. I made stickers for them. I went to their practices. I went to all their gigs. I made T shirts… 

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Hayes Waring

Wow.

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Kathleen Hanna

yeah, I mean, I was secretly always hoping they'd ask me to join the band. But like,

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Hayes Waring

Wow.

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Kathleen Hanna

Can you imagine if I was in Fitz of Depression? Like, that would just be so fucking weird.

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Hayes Waring  15:45

But so cool. I think we lost something there.

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Kathleen Hanna  15:52

It’s probably for the best.

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Hayes Waring  15:58

Yeah, that’s true. Can you tell me how you started a venue, Reko Muse? Can you tell me more about that?

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Kathleen Hanna  16:04

That happened because I was doing photography at school. And I did a bunch of work about sexism with my friend Aaron. And his work was all about AIDS. And it was hanging up in the hallway, which was supposedly the student art gallery, was basically a hallway outside of the cafeteria. And what happened was that I didn't know, we hung all of our stuff up. And it was our final project. It was a really big deal to us. And this was probably like, sophomore year, so I was like 18 or 19. And the, 

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Hayes Waring 

What year was that? 

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Kathleen Hanna

I don't, ’90, I don't know. It couldn't have been ‘90 because that was like Bikini Kill. I must have, I must have moved there earlier than ‘89. Because Oh, yeah, I graduated an ’86. I moved there in ’87. 

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Hayes Waring 

Oh, cool. 

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Kathleen Hanna

Um, no, I moved there in ‘86, because I graduated in ‘86. So it was like ‘88, maybe

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Hayes Waring 

Cool.

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Kathleen Hanna

‘87 or ‘88. And the school, I was really excited. We installed it over the weekend, and I went in on a Monday. And all the work was taken down. 

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[HW: What?]

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Kathleen Hanna

Yeah. And nobody would, it's a long story. I'm not gonna get into but basically, the Boy Scouts had rented a room in that area of the building, and the grand Pooh Bah of the Boy Scouts, I don't know what he's called, went to check out the space and saw this work about sexism. And this work about, what was funny was the work that I did, a lot of it was like taking images of women, portraits of like little girls and women and stuff. And I took them all out of Evergreen Library. And then people were like, really offended by them. And I was like, they're just from books in the library. Like, it's like, I'm just taking stuff that's already in the library and like showing it to you. But anyways, the guy was offended. And so instead of, you know, honoring the students, they chose to take the money from the Boy Scouts and take all our work down, and they messed it all up. And they destroyed this work that I had, you know, spent months and months working on and a lot of money. And so me and my girlfriends had already started meeting to talk about photography, my friend, Tammy Ray, my friend, Heidi, a bunch of local Olympia women who went to Evergreen, because our classes, you know, most of our teachers were really sexist. And the students were like, “Why are you doing work about feminism, that's stupid, it doesn't need to exist,” you know, whatever. “You're just trying to be controversial,” blah, blah, blah. I mean, but it's a great education for what I would later hear when I became a musician, because it was it was all the same stuff. So it really didn't give me a thick skin. But it was like, Oh, this is the same stuff. People said when I was making this kind of, you know, visual work, and now I'm making musical work. And I'm hearing the same exact thing. Maybe it's not me, you know what I mean? Like, maybe it’s …

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Hayes Waring  19:01

that's a big realization.

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Kathleen Hanna  19:03

Yeah, yeah. And so I do feel like you know, doing photography and stuff really helped me later in music. But it's funny because it's all of Evergreen’s failures that led me to the positive places I went. So me and my girlfriends, who were already experiencing the sexism- We'd been meeting at our various apartments like at the Angelus or the Martin or wherever, and talking about our work together, so that we actually got for real critiques and sharing articles. And then when my work was censored, I went to our weekly meeting and I was, you know, like, probably crying and really upset. And they're like, “Why don't we start our own gallery?” And so I knew this guy who was about to go to jail, John Kangas, and I knew he was gonna be in trouble-, he lived In a garage, and he knew he'd be in trouble with his landlord if he skipped out on rent, and he would lose the space. And so and also, we wanted a space. So I was like, Can we take over the lease? And so, sadly, John had to go to jail for a little bit, and it wasn't very long. And then me and my friends took over the space. And it was like 200 dollars a month. It was something like really not a lot, but we had to redo the whole place. And it was for photography, but it didn't pay the bills. So then we got Fitz and Nirvana to play and like bands to do benefits for us. Then that will pay the bills.

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Hayes Waring  20:43

What was the first show?

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Kathleen Hanna  20:45

Oh, I have no idea. For some reason. I feel like right around the beginning, we got Scrawl from Ohio. I remember them very early. But one of the first… like Slim’s band Lush played, like a lot of local bands like Tree House, which I don't know if you've ever heard of any of these bands. They're like, yeah, like Tree House. And I'm trying to think of some of the other, Demons band. I can't remember all the names, but a lot of local bands would play. And then, but the one of the first ones was this Fitz of Depression show with Nirvana, but they were called Industrial Nirvana. 

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Hayes Waring

Oh, wow. 

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Kathleen Hanna

And because they didn't want to play their regular songs. So they kind of did I guess noise music, whatever that is. And then I think the picture for the cover of Bleach got taken that night at Reko Muse. And, yeah, that happened. And so we made enough money to keep going for another month or two off of that show. And then we would do a month long photography show or we did sculpture like we had this guy that just brought in tons of dirt. And he just filled, I mean, it was like the worst like, worst idea, but it was amazing. Like he made this like installation out of dirt. And everybody, it was that Olympia when Olympia is at its best thing where like, everybody showed up to help, you know, like, people showed up to frame out a door when the…. Oh, and this comedy club guy was trying to shut us down.

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Hayes Waring 

What? Like a– 

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Kathleen Hanna 

A guy from Crackers, I don't know if Crackers is still there. It was a comedy club on 4^th Ave. and he sent the cops and the fire department after us and they kept coming over and like giving us violations. And they're like “you have to have a door built, you know, a second door and you have to have, you know, a ADA bathroom, and you have to have, you know, all this stuff.” And it was just like, we just called people and they just fucking showed up and got it done, you know, like, the door had two steps to the outside that had wet concrete at the first show. Luckily, they didn't step into it and know, but yeah, and the cops were constantly trying to shut us down and all that stuff. But it really started becoming more of a venue because of that. And I don't think people remember the photography shows that we did. But that's kind of where I got my start because I really wanted to be in a band, but I couldn't admit it to myself. And I was the booking agent, so I would like book all the bands and they would stay in my house and you know, give them pot like whatever, make them pancakes. But I was like always hoping somebody would ask me, like be in their band. And I had actually started kind of writing these acapella songs while I walked around town because I was doing spoken word and then I was like, Oh, what if I had a melody with it like, and then one of the first songs I wrote, I sang in the gallery to my friend Heidi. Because she had told me about how scared she was walking home at night in Olympia in the dark and how she carried a razor blade and a matchbook. So I wrote this song for her called “Matchbook”. And I performed it for her in the gallery. And that gave me all this confidence. You know, like, I always think back of it, like, Wow, there's so much stuff that made me feel like I could not be in a band that I had to like, literally, like, own the club that I first performed in to feel confident enough, you know. 

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Hayes Waring 

Right. 

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Kathleen Hanna 

So I used to get up and do John Cougar Mellencamp songs before bands, like I'd have no idea why. I just was like, we don't have an opening band or like there's just a space and nobody's doing anything. So I'd get up and just like sing “Jack and Diane” acapella and then get off the stage and people wouldn't, I mean, like two people would applaud. But also you know, one of the most, the best, one of my favorite, all time favorite bands in Olympia, Slim Moon’s band, Witchypoo, that totally inspired me because that, there's another kind of, you know, I don't know, crossway into doing poetry, doing, and poetry, then it becomes spoken word, where it's like more performative. And that's where I started really like using my body to perform. And like, I wasn't just reading poems. I started to kind of like, act them out, or like, have different characters and, you know, speaking kind of, like different voices, you know. And that totally affected my songwriting later, like in Bikini Kill, where I would have this like monster voice, and then this really sweet, cute voice. And so it started when my spoken word started being more performative and Slim, encouraged that, and I saw what Slim was doing and, you know, spoken word around the country that I was hearing about was more performative. And then Witchypoo, when Witchypoo came along, I mean, and just Slim in general, like stuff he would do, like, you know, he would have a set where he just, you know, pushed a button on the keyboard. And then he’s saying, “I can feel it Coming in the air tonight” by Phil Collins. Just the chorus over and over in a really low voice for like, 10 minutes. And I was like, this is the best thing I've ever seen in my life. And that's when I was sort of like, this is what punk is like, I was like, this is actually what clearing the room, like a huge fart just went off is like punk, like, I was like, there was something so Andy Kaufman about it, and it was, so fuck you, but it wasn't like this masculine violent spitting on you. It was like, you know, really different. And then the other part was that, you know, when I started booking bands, I started booking K bands. And, you know, becoming more aware, I knew a little bit about Go Team, I'd seen them play at GESCCO I think I'd gone there a couple of times, I always felt like, oh, nobody's gonna like me, or, you know, I don't fit in here. Like, I'm too much of a rocker. And, you know, these kids are like the Peanuts gang. And I was a heavy drinker and smoker. So I just felt like, oh, I don't fit in, you know, they're all like, kind of straight edge or whatever. But then I started really loving. You know, like, I loved Heather Lewis I loved you know, Tobi Vail. I loved Lois Maffeo. I don't know if I'm saying her name, right. Like, I was like, Oh, my God. You know, these are people who live in my town. And they're just walking around, and they make this music. And it's not this far away thing. Like, even though I was doing spoken word and booking bands and stuff, there was something about living in the same town with them and seeing them on, like seeing them go from the coffee shop to the stage that started giving me a lot of confidence. Like, that's probably the confidence that I got to sing John Cougar Mellencamp songs was like, you know, a lot of the K bands did, well they were goofy, you know, is like kind of like, amateur, you know, people would say amateur juvenile in a negative way. But I'm saying it in a positive way. Like, the, it was like punk is an idea about community and creating whatever you want. It's not an idea about hating the audience or toxic masculinity, or, you know, it was it was just about kids refusing to let corporations dictate to them what they were going to consume musically. You know, and like, I felt like K was really realizing that promise. And I felt like, they had a real, kind of a lot of the music had a very femme presentation, and edge and like really kind of honored the traditionally feminine kind of qualities or whatever, and the music and the art and everything. It wasn't Macho. I mean, they definitely have some bands that don't fit that bill, but the stuff I was seeing was like, very sincere and heartfelt and pretty. And I was like, wow, this is punk too. You know what I mean? And it really expanded my idea from the punk I saw in high school, to this new thing, you know, and I was always trying to make things happen. And then I saw there's this whole other group of people who are doing the same thing. You know, like Calvin or Candice, you know, making it happen, and Tobi always making things happen. Like, there's this whole other group of people I didn't know who were doing that and then there's like me, my friends running Reko Muse and you know, just sort of with, between that and Slim, like, yeah. That's how I happened.

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Hayes Waring  30:10

Wow. So the John Cougar Mellencamp songs, is that the first performance of Amy Carter?

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Kathleen Hanna  30:19

No, that was pre Amy Carter. Amy Carter

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Hayes Waring  30:24

Will you tell us who played, what that band was, who played what and what did they sound like?

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Kathleen Hanna  30:30

Oh God, I don't even remember what we sound like. There's no recordings. It was me, two of my friends from my photography thing, which is Heidi Arbogast, the girl I wrote the song for. She wanted to play drums. Tammy Rae played bass. And actually, I'm looking at her bass right now, because she gave it to me. But um, 

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Hayes Waring

Oh, wow. 

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Kathleen Hanna 

She had a three quarter size Hagström that was painted with green house paint.

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Hayes Waring  30:58

Oh, wow.

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Kathleen Hanna  31:00

And then we, and we I think we all lived in the same house. Heidi might have lived. Heidi might have lived somewhere different, but me and Tammy lived in the same house up on State Street by the government buildings. And then this guy, Greg Babeyer. He lived there too. And he actually knew how to play instruments. And he was always like, futzing around in his room. Like, he had like a TEAC machine like, four track reel to reel. And then he could play guitar. And he had drums, like he set up a practice space in the basement. And…you might not really like somebody very much, but if they have the PA, they're like, “Well, Greg has a PA, and he actually knows how to play. So he's in the band”, like, we ended up not getting along at all, and it was awful. But yeah, so we started, we just listened to the Pixies and Sonic Youth a lot. And then we wrote songs that sounded nothing like either of those bands, because we kind of sucked. The only song I mean, we did a cover of “Kiss.” And this was before Tom Jones did a cover of “Kiss” by Prince. I think Tammy or Heidi sang. And then we had this song called “The List.” That's the only song I remember. And it was like, 10 things that a guy would try to do to, like, manipulate you and destroy your life. It was like step one, look in her eyes, make her believe that you really like her, step tw-, because I had like, read something, like it was before The Pickup Artist or incels was really a thing. But like, it was a thing. It just had no name. I had read some article in some magazine that was like, you know how to get a girl or whatever. And it was like, you know, step one, do this. And it was basically like, how to act like you really care about somebody, but you don't care about them at all. You just want to get in their pants. And so I just turned that article into probably a really bad song. But…

‍

Hayes Waring  33:08

[Laughing] It sounds pretty good.

‍

Kathleen Hanna  33:10

I mean, we had I think we had a total of three songs or four songs and one of them was a cover, and we would open at Reko Muse, um. And we played a couple times, and then we just sort of dissolved, but I was, I was like, Oh, I'm definitely going to be in another band after this. Like none of them, I don't think, I think Greg might have. Greg was in Witchypoo for a while, but like, I was like, Oh, I'm missing our band now. Like, I was convinced after that, even though we only had four songs. I was like, Well, this is, now I'm a singer in a band. So that's what I do. That's who I am. So then we got in another band and then another band.

‍

Hayes Waring  33:52

How many shows did Amy Carter play? 

‍

Kathleen Hanna 

Probably like three.

‍

Hayes Waring

Oh, wow. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna 

I mean, maybe. 

‍

Hayes Waring

Very, cool. And then they were all at Reko Muse?

‍

Kathleen Hanna  34:05

Yeah. I was too scared to venture. I was there all the time. I was like cleaning the floors. You know what I mean like, yeah, scrubbing the bathroom, playing a show… I remember some of the funnest shows were like Shadowy Men On A Shadowy Planet. 

‍

Hayes Waring

Oh, wow. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna 

Like just dancing and sweating, and like having such a great time. Seeing The Obituaries for the first time. Monica Nelson the singer was like so incredible. And Tobi was there, and that was the first time we spoke to each other.

‍

Hayes Waring  34:39

What did you guys talk about?

‍

Kathleen Hanna  34:41

Really liking her and really liking Obituaries and yeah, and sort of like I had read Tobi's fanzines. I think at that point, I actually used to write these chapbooks, like I wrote this one 

‍

Hayes Waring  35:01

yeah, I really want to talk about this.

‍

Kathleen Hanna  35:04

I wrote these what I call chapbooks. And I didn't know that they were kind of fanzines like they weren't, they were writing, but this one called “Fuck Me Blind” that was like it was basically a fanzine about Aristotle. Like I don't know how else to describe it. But I didn't know what a fanzine was. And I was one of those people who call it a “zine.” [Rhyming with “sign”]

‍

Hayes Waring  35:28

zine like fine.

‍

Kathleen Hanna  35:30

And so it was really funny that I made zines and didn't know how to say it. But I think Tobi's “Jigsaw” was one of the first zines I ever read. You know, and I was like, and, “Chainsaw” by Donna Dresch Yeah.

‍

Hayes Waring  35:48

And you used the pen name Maggie Fingers. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna 

Yes. 

‍

Hayes Waring 

Can you talk about that? 

‍

Kathleen Hanna  35:55

Oh, I was called Maggie when I was little. That was my name. My middle name is Marguerite so like, my Christmas stockings still says Maggie on it. 

‍

Hayes Waring

Very cool. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

I just use that. And then I was really into those Magic Fingers, you know, on the hotel rooms is like a massage. Like I stayed in a lot of, like shitty motels over the years as a kid, and I remember being so excited if I could get like a quarter or whatever it was to put in the Magic Fingers. Remember that innocence when like something like that made you really happy? Just having a quarter and laying on the bed to the magic, with the magic fingers is like going on a roller coaster trip, you know,

‍

Hayes Waring 

It's still pretty amazing. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

I sat in a massage chair in an airport, like, a month ago. And then I came home and I was telling everybody I was like, You guys, I have been in so many airports. And I never sit in a massage chair. Do it. It's the best thing. 

‍

Hayes Waring 

Yeah. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

it's been like $1. And it was a half an hour massage. It was such a good massage. And I was like, why am I wasting my time sitting in regular chairs? 

‍

Hayes Waring 

Never again. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

Never again. I'm in one right now. No, I'm just kidding.

‍

Hayes Waring  37:08

Were there other zines by Maggie Fingers?

‍

Kathleen Hanna  37:13

Um, there was a couple of chapbooks that were just writing like me writing stuff. And then later, much later, like I did a zine about addiction. After Kurt died, called– 

‍

Hayes Waring 

Is that the April Fool's one? 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

Yeah, “April Fool's Day”. But I did that, I think under my real name, or I just didn't put a name on it. I think in the introduction, I like signed the introduction. So everybody knew it was me. But

‍

Hayes Waring  37:45

That's a pretty big deal at the time. I don't think there's a lot of voices for harm reduction at that time. I thought, that was another thing I really wanted to talk to you about that. What did you think about that?

‍

Kathleen Hanna  37:58

Well, I learned about harm reduction from like, Long Hair Dave, do you know who Long Hair Dave is?

‍

Hayes Waring  38:03

I do. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna  38:07

Yeah. I saw Long-Hair Dave every day, just like everybody else did, who lived downtown or walked anywhere. And I had worked with him on some Books for Prisoners stuff. I think did some kind of  benefit show or something for Books for Prisoners. And then he told me what harm reduction was. Like, I'd never heard of it, you know, and it was mainly you know, in Olympia at the time, this was towards the end of Bikini Kill, like ‘95 or something. And I remember him explaining to me that people having fresh needles and stuff was like harm reduction, because they're going to use anyway, but they don't need to get like hepatitis or HIV. And I was really interested in that idea, sort of the concept of it, because I'd never, I'd never heard of it. And it's something that I've really applied in my life ever since in all kinds of ways. So thank you Long Hair Dave. 

‍

Hayes Waring 

Thank you Long Hair Dave. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna 

Thank you Long Hair Dave. And I did a benefit show for the Olympia Needle Exchange and for Books for Prisoners that was so bananas. Like, it's actually one of my favorite things I ever did in Olympia. We can talk about that later.

‍

Hayes Waring  39:43

Or we can talk about it now. We can circle back you know, talking about what fresh 

‍

Kathleen Hanna  39:47

This was later, like it'd be better to keep it chronological. Like,

‍

Hayes Waring  39:51

Okay, that's fine. Yeah, I love that stuff. Was that called, the Olympia AIDS Prevention Project at the time?

‍

Kathleen Hanna  39:59

Yeah, I think that's what it was called Yeah, 

‍

Hayes Waring  40:02

Very cool. Well, yeah, I'm, as I said, zines or, I guess I really want to say it's really amazing how prolific that you are. The zines, the poetry, the word core, and is your next band, and the bands… your next band after Amy Carter was Viva Knievel?

‍

Kathleen Hanna 

Yes. 

‍

Hayes Waring

Can you tell us a little bit about Viva Knieval?

‍

Kathleen Hanna  40:28

That was a band with my boyfriend Matt, who was the drummer for Tree House and he was incredibly hot. I saw him play at Reko Muse. We booked Tree House. And I don't remember the opening or the headliner, but um, I was like, Oh my God, that guy's so sexy. And so I ended up going home with him. And then we ended up, you know, being together for a while. And we started this band with Brad Sweek from Young Pioneers. Um, but Brad quit because I was annoying. And so then it was just me and Matt. And it was like, Oh, what are we gonna do now? And then Zeb Olsen, from this band, Matrimony, who lived in Melbourne, Australia, who I'm actually going to see in a couple of weeks because her band C5 is opening for Bikini Kill. 

‍

Hayes Waring  

Oh, wow.

‍

Kathleen Hanna 

Yeah. She did a fanzine called Conis Adonis, that was like a philosophical zine that had feminist elements, but was more just like, philosophy in general, as I recall. And I was really into zines that weren't about music. Like, I loved Tobi's zine. And I loved this, like, I loved stuff that incorporated music, but I was really always more interested in like, a zine that, you know, was either really super philosophical, or was about like, you know, rating different hairdressers, and that's all it was about, like, just like ones that were like, kind of random and weird. So I really, her band Matrimony was so great, and they were on K. And everybody was listening to Matrimony that summer, and just being like, oh my god, they're so cool. They're like, slowed down, sexy Stooges with a girl singer who sounds like she's a valley girl voice even though she's from Australia. And since I've had a valley girl accent for like, ever, I was like, This is my thing. You know, I was just listening to the album nonstop, and then she was outside the K offices. And I saw her and I was like, Oh my God, it’s Zeb, the bass player. And so we started talking. And then she joined the band with me and Matt and her brother Stuart was with her. So he became the guitar player. And he was in a band called Lubricated Goat in Australia. And so then the four of us and then their friend Simon, who they were traveling with, he became our roadie. We just started like practicing every day and making up songs. And we were pretty like, kind of heavy metal, like we definitely wouldn't fit in like the K universe. But I think K was like, influencing me in the way that I could also seem pretty and sweet. And so that was another reason why I would vacillate as a performer between this sort of like, twee you know, cutsie singing. And then this, like, you know, more metal kind of voice that was like, my chest voice. Yeah, I mean, I think, I don't even I mean, I know what the music sounded like, because I've heard it. And it's like, really embarrassing. But for the time, we were super weird. Like, it was very weird. It was a very weird combination. And like, I was so scared every time we performed, I’m still scared every time I perform, like, just total off stage fright. And I had no idea how we were coming across or what anybody thought. And then I remember Tobi saying, like, told somebody or somehow, I heard she thought I was a good front person. And I was like, Oh, my God. Like it just really was like a huge boost of confidence. And then when we went on tour, I started writing her letters. How Bikini Kill kind of started was through that letter writing.

‍

Hayes Waring  44:27

So you wrote Tobi pen pal letters from your first US tour with Viva Knieval? 

‍

Kathleen Hanna  44:33 

Yeah. And part of it was just like, I thought, because you know, the thing about Olympia as well. A lot of times I don't feel like my politics were very embraced. It was a good place. for the most part, besides one person who I'm not going to mention who had a lot of power in the scene who was not, is not great to women. It was for the most part are, you know, the kind of town where like, I'm trying to record something and I don't even know the guy from Negativland, I don't even know Mark from Negativland and he's offers to loan me microphones, you know what I mean? And like, everybody was like, you can use my practice space, like, there was, at least when I lived there such an intense community vibe that I never found anywhere else. There was like, people wanted to support each other, because they knew that they would get something out of it. Because they knew that, you know, if we share our resources, we create a stronger scene. And it gave all of us a reason to keep making things and to keep going out and to keep doing things and like, you know, having goofy shit like the Pet Parade, that we all, ya know, like, stuff like that. It was like, people don’t understand, like, how great that stuff can be, you know. But yeah, I wrote to Tobi and I wrote a lot because I thought, oh, everybody's gonna be really nice to us. And like, everybody was in Olympia was pretty much nice to, you know, Viva Knieval, though some people were like, “You're too intense,” or, you know, whatever. And then when we left and went on tour, I thought everybody's gonna be like, “This is so cool. This is like, a feminist band, and they're weird singer like talks about domestic violence,” because at the time, I was working at SafePlace, which is still there. And I sort of took my show on the road with that band that I would like, talk about stuff I learned from SafePlace, in between songs, and some of the songs had themes like domestic violence and rape and harassment. So I would like, you know, use the opportunity that I was a person on stage to, like, say that stuff, because I also knew how weird it was after running Reko Muse. You know, a friend of mine, my roommate was assaulted and almost killed in our, in our duplex over by the library and like, nobody gave a shit. And I dealt with it on my own. And, you know, tons of people I knew had really violent things happen to them. And we were always living an arm's length away from male violence. And here I was at Reko Muse booking Alice Donut who great band, but what are they telling me about my life, like nothing, you know, and all these different bands that would come in, and it was just like these guys singing about some kind of suburban angst and how their girlfriends were bitches. And, you know, I started really boiling up inside, like, how is it that like, you know, I am working crisis lines, and the phone's ringing off the fucking hook. And there's women, all over our community who are like, moving out to cabins in the woods to get away from their boyfriends and their husbands. And there's no song about it? There's not one person singing a song about it, you know? And like, so many I watched, I watched women go to Evergreen and drop out the first six months, because they started having memories about stuff that happened in their families. And they went into crisis, and they couldn't go on. And no one said anything. So when I started playing music, I was like, I'm gonna sing about that stuff. Because nobody besides Jean from Mecca Normal, who had come to play at Reko Muse who was a huge inspiration to me, because she just said it like it was, and she was like, “We're a political band. And look, we have a political spoken word person with us and a political painter. And, you know, this is a political tour.” And they had a whole community around this thing called Black Wedge. And when I booked them, and I saw that I was like, okay, I can do this, I can totally do this. And then I would do it in Viva Knievel. And like, you know, it was intense for people, and there was some criticism, but I still thought, Oh, my God, people are gonna be so psyched. Because this is like, you know, I'm not saying I'm the first person to ever talk about that stuff in song. I mean, NoMeansNo guys have talked about like, you know, Fugazi “Suggestion”, like, you know, tons of women performers have done it before me, but not that I knew of, and there was no internet, so I could know of it. Nobody in my community was doing that specific thing. And so it was like, I thought, everybody, you know, when we went to Minneapolis, I thought people would be like, “Oh, yay, finally.” But that was not at all the reaction. I was like, Oh, God, so I started writing to Tobi and sort of like kvetching, you know, like, you know, meeting women who are like, I was meeting women after shows and it was really funny. Not funny, but ironic that when me and my friends used to go to shows in high school, it was usually the three of us. And that was it. We were the only girls there, or, women, girls. And then I was playing these shows and it was the same deal. It was predominantly white, three girls or three women, and except for in the case of Viva Knieval, typically the women didn't know each other, which I always found interesting. There’d be like three women, like scattered around the crowd. And after every show all the three women at, I mean, it's not it's not three women in every show, but I'm saying like, it was pretty much the same thing. Like, it was almost scary how scripted it felt. Afterwards, every woman that was their would come up to me and want to talk to me, and would tell me a really horrible story about their lives. And I had counseling training, so I used it. And so, you know, while maybe I was getting drunk, I was sitting on a corner counseling a high school girl about gang rape. And it did end up later being way too much for me, I didn't, I didn't know how to have boundaries. But at the time, I was like, Oh, this is really cool, because I was getting burnt out on doing direct service work at SafePlace. And now I was like, I get to go on stage in my band, and sing about this stuff and get it out of my body. And you know what I mean, like, sing songs that are inspired by these women that I was talking to on the phone or meeting at the shelter. And then women were being inspired to come up and tell me their stories. And I was able to be there for them, because I had some kind of training that I got in Olympia. And, you know, I always say, like, I got so much of a better education from SafePlace than I did from Evergreen, and I didn't pay a dime for my education at SafePlace. So I'm really thankful to them, like, so thankful to them. Because I feel like they had a lot to do with me getting into music, you know, because I was really sick of direct service work and, and then I was like, Oh, I can sing about the stuff and go on stage. And that's a part. So I'll still be doing volunteer work, without having to be a part of the SafePlace thing anymore. I can step away, but I can take what I've learned out into the world. And then when I did, I literally was still volunteering by doing service work on tour. So that that was, that was like, the good part. You know what I mean? Was like those women reminded me, oh, yeah, what you're doing is really important. And it made it pretty easy to like, all the guys who are like, assholes, and there were very many of them. Um, I just would be like, Yeah, but I'm not singing for you. I'm singing for the three women who are scattered in this room, you know, and there'd be like two, sometimes we’d play to the janitor. And there'd be nobody there and sometimes we’d play to you know, 20 people and sometimes we played 100 people, but yeah, those first tours–

‍

Hayes Waring  52:48

That's pretty impressive for a first tour.

‍

Kathleen Hanna  52:52

Yeah, well, the Babes in Toyland had played at Reko Muse and stayed at my house, at me and Matt's house. Lori Barbero, another person who I'm going to see on the Bikini Kill tour in Minneapolis, because I’m just riding with them. Lori Barbero was a person who was, didn't live in Olympia, but who was a real connector of people from Olympia to the rest of the world because she would like, you know, she would send me in the mail, a list of every club that she knew their phone number, because I think she booked their tours. And she's the person who taught me how to book a tour by just giving me a list and saying “you can use my name”. And everybody knew Lori. So that's how I booked that first Viva Knieval tour was, you know, just cold calling people and then Greg [Babeyer] ended up trading us. We had a fish tank and we gave him a fish tank. And he brought his TEAC over and recorded a Viva Knieval practice and we had a demo tape. And so we sent that out and we booked the tour. But yeah, it was again another community thing and and it was cool how the community feeling of Olympia made you kind of expect it in other people you know, and then when you would find it, you would really utilize it. Like if somebody said, “Oh, I'll help you. I'll send you my information.” Like I would write to her. As soon as I knew she was home and be like, hey, Lori. Remember when you said that? Can you actually you know?

‍

Hayes Waring  54:25

That's amazing. Kathi talked a little bit about the Babes in Toyland show at Pat Maley’s, off Division in the trailer. Can you talk a little bit about the Babes in Toyland show at Reko Muse?

‍

Kathleen Hanna  54:43

I mean,

‍

Hayes Waring  54:44

was it important?

‍

Kathleen Hanna  54:46

Yeah, I mean, it was so important that I feel almost like, you know how people blackout really bad things. I feel like sometimes I blackout really good things. The show was more important because it's the first time I saw them. And then booking them at Reko Muse just felt like, I don't remember the show so much because I was working. I do feel terrible that we didn't have the rider and I didn't really understand riders and and like now I'm in a band and I'm like, I need my rider and it's not there. But the thing, I always would buy dresses for Kat because we have such good thrift stores and stuff and like Tacoma and whatever. Every time we moved into a new you know, everybody knew her style, the baby doll dresses that she made famous. And so I was always buying her dresses, and then every time she would come to town or I’d go to Seattle to see them, I would bring her a dress wrapped up in a present. They came to Portland many years later… on tour with Viva Knieval, I bought her this like amazing antique dress, but I bought her this polka dotted blue dress and she ended up wearing it on the whole Retard Girl single. She's like hanging from the tree and like, I bought her that dress and I was like, oh my god, I'm really in the scene now. I was like I'm a part of this, you know what I mean, I love that whole single. I mean, I know we don't say that R-word anymore, but– 

‍

Hayes Waring 

It's a great single. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

It's a great single.  And like, yeah, played it a lot and really influential. And but yeah, sorry. I'm just telling you like boring. Like, 

‍

Hayes Waring  56:29

No, this is this is what I'm in for. This is the real stuff.

‍

Kathleen Hanna  56:36

But yeah, I just remember like, being around Kat was really hard for me because I was such a fan that every time I tried to talk to her, I would Oh my god. I would start thinking, singing her songs. Like I'd be like, she'd be like, I mean, we didn't even have a real kitchen. It was like a microwave and a hot plate kind of situation. It was like this broken down like kind of squat place. I'm like making her coffee or something. She's like, “is that your boyfriend?” And I'm like, he's my thing. Get away from that. And then I'm like, Just kidding. Every single time anything came up. I kept being like, “you got to spit to see the shine,” like it was Babes in Toyland Tourettes. It was like, I knew their songs so well and all their lyrics. And for some reason, every time I looked at her in the face, I would start singing her lyrics at her. It was so awful.

‍

Hayes Waring  57:42

I have a friend that does that.

‍

Kathleen Hanna  57:43

Oh my God, who is it? You can tell me later. 

‍

Hayes Waring 

Yeah. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

Oh my God, it was so, I was so awkward. Um, yeah. So I don't remember much of the show. But what did Kathi tell you about the Pat Maley thing, because we remember that show totally different.

‍

Hayes Waring  58:04

Well, you tell me what you remember. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna 

No, I want to know what she remembered. 

‍

Hayes Waring

She just remembers how powerful it was. And it's just a, she talks about how pivotal a moment it was watching them, and just like what it was like to see a band that could just communicate. So and a female band that could communicate so viscerally, she talked said, oh, you know, you could see, you know, you see all Black Flag or Nirvana. And you could see like those bands, just channeling something, but that was the first time they'd seen like a woman, female band, you know, just totally do that. And just be totally possessed. And not just like, I'm performing rock and roll, just being authentic. You know?

‍

Kathleen Hanna  58:51

Okay, that's my favorite line ever. And I'm totally going to use it. I am performing rock and roll. Nobody it just that phrase in that robot voice. I feel like there's so many times I watch performances where that's what I'm thinking, You know what I mean? It's like, learning the word ‘mansplaining,’ you know what I mean. “I am performing rock and roll” is such a good way to describe, but um, see, I remember a whole thing that I may have fictionalized, but whatever. I remember people in Olympia and I just started feeling like I'm a part of this scene. Like I booked shows. I think maybe I played in Amy Carter. I I don't know Viva Knieval it happened yet or not. Probably not, because I wasn't living at that place. So yeah, I think it was it was like Amy Carter era or something. And I remember there's a bonfire outside and we're seeing them and I had the same exact feeling that Kathi spoke of just like, you know, they were so good. I mean, they were so, everything about them was so good. And it did feel like they were communicating with something otherworldly. And it was shooting through Kat's mouth. And she was definitely doing the thing that I aspired to, later, of having more than one personality on stage. Like one second, it was like, Oh my God, that's like the most beautiful girl in the world singing this beautiful poetic lyric. And then she was gonna eat your fucking face, like, and it happened in a split second. And you know, and she had the huge bow on, and it was just, it was just some next level shit that like, we were not ready for, but completely waiting for at the same time. And I remember, and see, I always remember the negative stuff. Tobi and Kathi, remember the positive stuff, like I remember that. I fully remember that show. But I do remember having people hearing, overhearing people making comments, basically disparaging them, especially Kat for being attractive. Like, “oh, well, they're only getting attention” and I was like, first of all, they're playing in a fucking shack in the middle of nowhere, like, playing by like some wetlands that, you know, like, some protected wetlands. Like I was like, oh, yeah, you know, they've really made it now. But nobody was like, people were like, disparaging them or, or diminishing, trying to diminish their talent, all three of them, because they're pretty. And I was just like, what? I mean, like, I just remember, it was, it was one, it was a major disappointment, like, I have found my punk family. Now my family is disappointing me. Um, and I take things way too seriously. Like, I should have just been like, fuck those certain people, you know what I mean? But it just kind of broke my heart to have those comments being flung around after they play. Like I was just like, How dare you like this is I just saw God, you know what I mean, like, and then I remember, and this is long before Bikini Kill me and Tobi and Kathi, just standing around the fire, talking about how much we loved them. And being like, I'm not alone. Because I'm sure I went to that show alone. Like, I went to tons. I always went to shows like by myself, and I, I do remember, especially Kathi, because I feel like I kind of knew Tobi. And we had bonded on like, maybe the Obituaries before at Reko Muse or at least, like, I remember thinking, Oh, that's when she told me she liked the Obituaries being like, Oh, she likes like harder stuff. She doesn't just like K stuff, like she's, you know, like, well rounded and not close minded or whatever. And she recognized as a great front person, like, Monica just had this really full amazing voice and again, threw herself totally 100% into the performance and she was just dripping with passion and. And to have Tobi like, it was like, I liked it so much. So it made me feel validated and then the three of us just being by the bonfire like, and being like, Oh, I'm not alone. Like, I'm not the only person who thought this was great. You know, but I don't think either of them. Remember that, that we talked to each other. I think Tobi they, I think Tobi remembers us talking together. But I don't know if Kathi remembers us all being there together.

‍

Hayes Waring  1:03:37

I think Tobi has told me that she thinks that that is a big piece of the beginning of Bikini Kill.

‍

Kathleen Hanna  1:03:43

That's what I think too. Like to me, that was a huge moment, because I was in this sort of despair. And then these two girls were like, “oh my god, that was the fucking best thing”. And I feel like it was kind of quiet. Like we were kind of like, like, like, it was a secret and you know what I mean, it was like, oh my god, that was so, that I'm really, I don't know what to do with myself. I feel really, you know what I mean? Like we were all really overwhelmed. And I think Tobi it seen more kind of life-changing stuff than than me and Kathi had, so she may have been less overwhelmed, but me and Kathi were definitely over the fuck whelmed. Like, “what do we do?” Like, like stammering in the face of it, you know? And yeah, to me, that definitely was the beginning of Bikini Kill, but like we didn't even you know, like I didn't even know Kathi like, I didn't see her again until you know, I’d just see her around campus.

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Hayes Waring  1:04:43

Can you talk about that house that you and Kathi lived in, in Portland?

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Kathleen Hanna  1:04:49

Oh, we lived in the Calamity Jane house.

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Hayes Waring  1:04:51

Yeah. Was that after the Viva Knievel tour.

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Kathleen Hanna  1:04:54

Yeah. So after the Viva Knieval tour, we left Australians in DC. And they were hanging out with like Guy from Fugazi. And like all those people and like, I didn't know any of them. Like, I didn't know any of them. I mean, I grew up like five miles away from them. And I had no idea about any of their bands or anything, which was really funny that someone from Australia knew all about them. She, like me- so I'd been writing letters to Tobi, frustrated with some of the stuff I was dealing with on tour, and Louise, Zeb, that are our bassist had been writing to Guy from Fugazi about her frustrations with me, because I was drunk a lot. And I carried a gun. And, you know, it's just like, you know, I was, it was, I was hard to be around, I'm sure I have a lot of energy and I was very intense and stuff. So me and Matt went back to Portland and I had to make money for school because I had another, I actually missed graduating because I was on tour with Viva Knieval. So I didn't finish my last semester, and I didn't graduate. So I had to do another semester and graduate. So I got a job at this place called Ron Paul's, like this catering place. And I got a job as a dancer at this place called Mary's and just started like working. Because I only had at that point, like a month to make my $600, which was a lot at the time. And we came back with no money, we had zero dollars and zero cents and I had to sell my gun to get gas to get back and we did a drive away. So we didn't even have a car. And yeah, we just knew Calamity Jane from Olympia, so somehow, we ended up moving into their house and Kathi lived there. And we didn't really talk, like we didn't really know each other at all. Um, I just worked all the time. So I was like, barely ever home. You know, I'm not sure she lived there the whole time. I think her boyfriend might have lived there. And then she sort of moved in. Like, I didn't really see her that much. But Calamity Jane practiced a lot, and I got to hear all their, like fights and stuff. And that was fascinating to me, because I just thought they were like, this kind of perfect band. And, you know, Gilly had her sister in the band, I was like, Oh, that's so cool. You know, but all bands argue I mean, healthy bands argue like, I've been in bands that don't argue and it does not go well. So I know now that they were probably a really healthy band, because they would have arguments like creative differences, and they would argue about them. But I remember listening through the floor to their practices. And just being like, I don't know, it's just sort of like, Am I going to, are we going to try to keep doing Viva Knieval, like what's going to happen? And I think that Calamity Jane tried to get Kathi to join. But she wouldn't, and so they got Megan to join instead. I don't I don't really know the story there. But I don't remember Kathi from that time period very much at all. Did she remember that house?

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Hayes Waring  1:08:10

Yes, she talked about you. But most importantly, she talked about you and Matt asking her to practice with you.

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Kathleen Hanna  1:08:23

Oh, I forgot that. Yeah, we were like looking for anybody to be in the band. That is so funny. Oh my god, what if that would’ve happened?

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Hayes Waring  1:08:33

Well, I think you know, one thing that I am curious about with that is something that will, two things you know, she said you kind of like, you asked her if she had enough balls to play with you in the basement? And 

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Kathleen Hanna: Oh! so embarrassing!

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Hayes Waring: And, and the other part is…

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Kathleen Hanna  1:09:04

And was the answer, “No. You're crazy. Shut up. I don't want to know. Are you talking about balls to me?”

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Hayes Waring  1:09:09

No, her answer was, “yes. I think that I do have balls to go to the basement and practice with you.” what is, but

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Kathleen Hanna  1:09:18

I didn’t realize that we had ever like played together or talked about playing together before Bikini Kill. I always thought that was just Tobi, so Kathi was definitely destined to be in the band. I mean, I was already trying to play music with her. I didn't even, maybe I'm the one who told her. I don't know. I have no idea how that happened. I mean, I always liked her. Like I knew who she was, but she was like, a mystery wrapped in an enigma. You know what I mean? Like she's a hard nut hard to crack if you don't know her. You're like, she's so intimidating, because she's like a space alien from another planet. And like, she's super smart. She's really into film. She can typically be really quiet until she's like, passionate about something and like, ready to say what she has to say. Like, once you get to know her, she can be super chatty, and like, you know, very warm and stuff. But it took years for me to get past that, the beautiful space alien, you know, smart nerd thing that she has going on, you know, the girl who looks like she's never wearing pants. You know what I mean? Like, I was just like, that girl’s so cool. And I don't know if Kathi told you this, but part of the reason why we knew about each other was because my name is Kathleen, her name is Kathi. We both had black hair and the same haircut. And so everybody would mistake us for each other. But I'm like two feet shorter than her like, I literally could be her child. Like, at that time.

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Hayes Waring  1:10:50

She said it happened a lot. 

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Kathleen Hanna  1:10:53

Yeah, and it was so weird. Because it is like the stars aligning, we look nothing alike. We're like, the opposite in terms of like faces. And you know, like, I have tiny lips. She has big lips. She has big wide eyes. I have, you know, small eyes, like, you know what I mean? Like, everything about us is so different. She's really tall and skinny. I'm more like, you know, short and robust. Or compact. Like, I'm a little compact little package. We look so different from each other. I guess there's something in common with the way we walked or our style or something. And then when I met her, I was like, that can't possibly be the person. People like that. If anybody's comparing me to that person, they need glasses. Like, wild. but she just was like, and I would just like be at houses that mutual friends. Like we watched a Fellini movie. And of course, she sat there and you know, watched the whole thing. And I fell asleep in the first two minutes. I was like, That was fucking boring.

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Hayes Waring  1:11:59

Why is he drowning in a you know, whatever.

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Kathleen Hanna  1:12:02

I was just like, why is this in black and white. But I think that's why we complement each other so good is like we are very opposites in a lot of ways. And like, you know, she's always able to talk me off the ledge. And I'm always like, Could you please become a mess, so I can talk you off a ledge at some point? That's so funny. I didn't remember that, Hayes. Thank you for telling me that. It's like oh, now I'm gonna talk to her about it when I see her next week. That's so funny.

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Hayes Waring  1:12:35

Yeah, so thankfully, she did have the balls. And but one thing that she said about that practice that I was really kind of, like, touched me was that, you know, that you two just clicked. And then she said, “You know, a lot of people, you know, when you play with them, especially vocalists, they're always like, Yeah, I can't really do anything with that. Or they say something like, Oh, what about change this or change that?” Or, but you were, you know, for all the intimidation, and like, do you have the balls personality? You know, were so positive. And, and like, always, were like, “I can do something with that.” And never was a chance, there was never a time where you just didn't have something to say you were always on. And I just want to say, because this is being recorded, how rare that is, like, that's just not something that you come across very often, in playing music, is having a collaborator that always has something to say, like, that's really special. And, you know, I, I really appreciated Kathi, being able to, that's, that's the thing that's important here is that, you know, Kathleen, there's, you know, what is that engine that's that, that drives that because that's really special.

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Kathleen Hanna  1:14:04

Yeah, most of it was feeling insecure actually, like feeling like I didn't know that much about music and feeling so lucky that I got to make music like so grateful that I mean, you could play the sound of a cat throwing up a hairball on a loop and I would sing to it, you know, like, I was just really excited that I got to sing. And I really wanted to, any opportunity I had to sing, any opportunity I had to play to somebody else's guitar part or baseline or whatever. It was like a challenge that I wanted to accept. You know what I mean? And the main problem I had back then was because I knew so little bit, so little about music because I didn't have a ton of records and I didn't, I didn't know punk history. I didn't know rock history. I didn't know. I knew a little bit about reggae history and had written about it in school, but I didn't know about the genres that I was actually playing in. And so I was always afraid that somebody was like, trying to do a cover song and I was gonna sing new words to it, like. But what was weird is, when I played with guys, I was more scared of that because when I played with Tobi and Kathi, I think I did that once, like they were really kind of warming up like playing, I don't know, Gang of Four song and I didn't know it was Gang of Four song and so I started singing like brand new lyrics to it. Like I didn't even know what it was or Stooges song even, oh my god, like, I didn't know anything about the Stooges. And so I'm like, singing brand new lyrics to like, “I Want To Be Your Dog”. And so they didn't make me feel bad about it. You know, I mean, that was kind of the key. It was like, it wasn't like laughing in your face, like, dumb ass, you know? But, um, but yeah, that's, that's nice that she noticed. I never, I always thought of it more than a deficit that I was kind of, like, so desperate. 

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Hayes Waring

No, that's not. 

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Kathleen Hanna 

I thought of it more of like, a desperation. Like I'll sing anything. Give me anything. Give me any chance. I'll sing.

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Hayes Waring  1:16:10

That's, that's, that's amazing. That's a big deal.

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Kathleen Hanna  1:16:15

Well, thanks. I mean, it was definitely born way more out of insecurity than, and like, the whole. I don't know what the hell that balls comment was. I feel like you're always definitely, I was, I was definitely a drinker, let's just say, and I was kind of like, more on the Slayer tip when I got to Olympia in my head than I was into the Beat Happening tip, and I was the girl who was like, you know, someone spilled a beer on me in the party and I started a fight like, I'm not proud of my behavior… I could see me with my short hair and my tube top in my head. I like I used to wear tube top as a headband and my stupid combat boots and just like you know, I had just been like working at the shelter and was so, I was so rageful about so many things that I think I just really took on this persona that was not really me at all. And so when I hear that stuff, I'm like, I said that? That doesn't sound like me at all.

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Hayes Waring  1:17:26

I think we've lost Kathleen. So I think that's the end of Part One. And I will be right back.

Hello, this is Hayes Waring talking to Kathleen Hanna for the Olympia Music Project. Today is Saturday February four. It is 1:42 in the Pacific. Hey, Kathleen. Welcome back.

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Kathleen Hanna  1:17:57

Thanks for having me.

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Hayes Waring  1:18:00

So Bikini Kill has started. What do you want to talk a little bit more about that? Kathi has talked a bit about you guys practicing at the Vails’ and then going through trying to find guitarist? Do you have any memories about that?

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Kathleen Hanna  1:18:22

Yes, um, I remember I found this woman named Esther.

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Hayes Waring  1:18:30

The country singer.

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Kathleen Hanna  1:18:32

I don't know, I think she was a country singer. I just know she played like acoustic guitar. And then she was like, “I'll give it a try.” But it just did not work like at all. And then there was this mean girl from the Smithfield who like, like said she was wanting to play and then she like, basically just, it's funny that we were just talking about, you know, being a generous collaborator. This person was like the least generous collaborator. Like she came into the practice and like, you know, I look at it now. And I'm like, she probably felt intimidated. Like, we already have a couple songs, I think, and we were trying to get her to teach her the songs or Kathi was trying to maybe teach her the songs on guitar. She really didn't have any interest in it. And I didn't know why she was there. And she kept just making excuses, like, you know, when somebody doesn't want to play basketball, and then they just foul you and they're like, “Well, I'm a street ballplayer” and you're like, No, you just don’t know how to play, like it kind of felt like that. Like it was like, I think, you know, she just didn't, she either was intimidated and was really insecure or something weird was going on where, but I think she just put it off on like, we were jerks or something and then she left and I think she was mad and then she like told everybody we were assholes. And I was like, okay, well good thing that we didn't hire her. You know what I mean? Like she clearly doesn't like us and thinks we're jerks. So, whatever. And then it was just like looking and looking and just there's just nobody like, you know, until Bill came along.

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Hayes Waring  1:20:11

Was that person Candy?

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Kathleen Hanna  1:20:13

Candy? I don't think it was. I don't know if that was her name. I don't. I think Candy might have been a different person. I'm talking about another person. I don't think Candy. I think Candy may have auditioned and she might have been a mean girl from the Smithfield too I mean, anybody could we would have asked would have probably worked at the Smithfield. We probably auditioned every single woman who worked behind the counter at the Smithfield. At one point or another. Um, I don't think the person's name was Candy. No, I think it was a different person who I'm talking about who, for whatever reason, just didn't like our music or I don't know. It's just a really awkward situation. Like, seemed like she didn't want to be there. I don't know. This is really weird.

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Hayes Waring  1:20:56

Kathi said that she called you guys Barbie dolls.

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Kathleen Hanna  1:21:01

I mean, that would make sense. I mean, she had short hair. She was Butch. Um, you know, maybe like that part of our like, gender presentation was annoying to her. But Kathi's the only one who looks at all like Barbie, and she looks like Barbie on acid. Like I don’t think Tobi and have ever been confused with Barbie dolls. You know, whatever. Yeah. Now that's, that's coming clear. I mean, I remember what the person looked like, but I don't. Yeah, I definitely don't think her name was Candy.

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Hayes Waring  1:21:39

Very cool. And how many shows did you guys play as a trio before Bill showed up?

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Kathleen Hanna  1:21:48

That's a Tobi question. I don't, I don't know. I mean, a couple. At least, like four or five. You know, I mean, it's so funny, because like I am always like, was the first show we played with Bill in Pat Maley's basement? Like, I don't know. Like, I remember that as being. That's the first time I remember him being there. Kind of and then it's so weird because we recorded our demo like the next day.

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Hayes Waring  1:22:20

Oh, was it? Yeah. Kathi said it was really soon. It was. Bill had just learned the songs or had just come in when you guys record the demo. But you remember it being like the next day?

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Kathleen Hanna  1:22:31

Yeah, so we played at Pat Malley’s house at the ABC House. The ABC collective cooperative, which has its own, I guess, whole anarchist history. We played in the basement. He had a reel to reel. Reel to reel is very big in Olympia in the ‘80s and ‘90s. Anybody with a reel to reel… you wanted them in your friendship group, let's just say. But we played a party, very sparsely attended in the basement. Billy was wild. And I was really happy that he was in the band at that moment, because I was just like, whoa, like, That guy's like, got a lot going on. And he took a lot of pressure off of me to like, as the front person because he could be so active. And he was so interesting to watch. I feel like it was like, it would have been a real disaster if we got somebody who just stood there and like, he could sometimes just stand there and be in a bad mood. But even if he stood there and was in a bad mood, he was fascinating to watch. And his guitar playing was so great that like I just remember, I don't think a lot of people liked that show. But I remember being very impressed by Bill. What he pulled off after such a short time playing with us. And then yeah, we just left everything set up and Pat was like, “oh, we'll record you. I'll record you for free.” And we're like, okay, and then we either came back the next day, or like two days later or something. And then we just basically played the same show we played before, but with no people there. Like not a lot of overdubs or you know what I mean, it was just 

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Hayes Waring  

That’s a brilliant idea. 

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Kathleen Hanna  

Yeah, yeah. But um,

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Hayes Waring  1:24:28

And that's your first tape, the demo? 

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Kathleen Hanna  

Yeah. 

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Hayes Waring  

Had the spoken word seven inch with you and Slim come out already. Or?

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Kathleen Hanna  1:24:38

I don't know, timing wise. I feel like it was around the same time like. It must have been around the same time. I think actually this maybe, no, I think the spoken word thing came out a little later. I probably already recorded it, but it just didn't come out for a while, I can't really remember. But I recorded that at Slim's house on his four track. And that was the first time I ever gained this kind of recording understanding of what a four track could do, and how like you flip the side of the cassette and stuff like that. And then I took an audio class at college. And at Evergreen, and I was terrible, like, I couldn't understand anything in the book, I felt like I was nuts. Like, I was like, a part of my brain has been chopped out. So I cannot understand audio. But then when I got in the studio, I completely understood like, I really, I could do it, I just couldn't talk about it. Like, I don't care about the concepts of why something is or not, is not working. Like I just want to drive the car. Like I don't need to know how the car works. I don't need to know all the things under the hood. I just need to like read the book about what to do if the taillight goes out, and how to replace it like, so I just was really an instruction manual type producer, engineer. I just always had the manual, you know, and I just read the manual and learned how to use the board. And you know, did stuff like made my first ever sample on the wall with a with a Tascam.

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Hayes Waring  

Oh, wow. 

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Kathleen Hanna: 

Stand up thing and like, yeah, I totally thought I invented it. But we were learning how to edit tape, you know, like with a razor blade, and then tape it back together. 

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Hayes Waring  

Right 

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Kathleen Hanna: 

And so I made a loop. And I put the loop. It had those walls that were perforated. Right, so you could just stick a pencil in it. So I stuck a pencil in the wall and then I had the thing run on the tape and then it ran on the wall.

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Hayes Waring  1:26:52

And that's a pegboard, for everybody at home. That's brilliant. 

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Kathleen Hanna  1:27:00

Yeah, I mean, I didn't, I was just goofing around, but I was like, Oh, that's really cool. And I kept it in my head of like, oh, someday you could do something like that, like, um, but yeah, that that core section really helped me I didn't use it really very much until later I just kind of felt like it'd be a good thing to know about like I was really into knowing about production, like knowing how to edit video,  all these things that later really served me well being in bands, but I didn't I didn't know I was preparing. preparing myself for, but you know, and I used to take photos of Unwound or Giant Henry before they were, but I took pictures of Fitz of Depression and Mikey and Kurt and different bands in town that I would just like photograph. I even took a picture of Esther thinking she was going to be in Bikini Kill and I still have that picture. But she ended up not being in it. Took tons of pictures of Kathi. Kathi was like my photo model forever. But I did the cover art for the, for the spoken word, Girl Boy record. I did like the first 200 or 300 on actual photo paper. I printed them in the lab by hand, which is like color photography printing, really a pain back then. And doing 200 of them was like, I don't know what I was thinking. But…it was really special to hand-make things. 

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Hayes Waring 

Yes. 

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Kathleen Hanna 

It felt really like, I don't know, it just felt like it was my first ever time being on like a single or whatever. And I was so honored to be on something with Slim. And so I wanted to be helpful and a part of the team. And so um, yeah, I printed them all, myself. I still have one or two of the original ones with the… nobody else would care but me, but I was really proud that I made all the covers now.

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Hayes Waring  1:28:58

Yeah, that's really hard. It's cool. And then that's, so KRS, Kill Rock Stars started out as a wordcore label. Pretty much that's the first release?

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Kathleen Hanna  1:29:09

Yeah. Yeah. And then what was weird, was it. I think that's all he was gonna do. Like, I think he was just like, I'm gonna put out 10 Spoken word singles, and then be done. It was something like that. And then Tobi and Kathi were like, we have to put out a record, we don't really want to put it out on K. Because Tobi just have a lot of history where she'd put out so much stuff on K and been in bands with one of the owners. And so it's sort of like, let's do something different. We didn't want to do that. And although they'd been very helpful like they loaned us the dubbing decks for to do our demo, and our demos were actually all printed on Nirvana “Bleach”, demos that they taped side A on both sides, and so Kurt gave Tobi just like a bunch of boxes of these cassettes and, you know back then, there's that little hole and you just have to tape over it. So like I made the artwork, taped the tape over the thing, like I made the artwork for the Bikini Kill tape to go, it perfectly go over where it said Nirvana, and then like the name of the, title of the thing. But I always think that's really funny in terms of what ended up happening in the world like that. We were like the girl band who's like taping over, Nirvana

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Hayes Waring  1:30:36

the demos. Yeah.

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Kathleen Hanna  1:30:38

Yeah. But it was also a tale of generosity. That Kurt was like an early proponent of recycling. Where's the movie about that? Yeah, I remember Tobi just being like, we all kind of had this thing about Slim, or at least, I should speak for myself, I had this thing about Slim, where first of all, I felt like he changed the trajectory of my life. And I always looked up to him. And he also was a big drinker. But he quit. And I knew I always wanted to go that route eventually. But also, he was such a freak, like he's such a freak on so many levels. His band Witchypoo is hands down, some of their shows are my favorite shows of all time, I could write about them. I remember every second of some Witchypoo shows like totally mind blowing, and to have it happen in a small town, to have art at that level in a small town. It's not like, oh, well, that's so random. Because people in small towns are stupid. And of course, they wouldn't do that. And it's all bar bands. It's just for me, it was like, Oh, I was seeing myself reflected in the culture. You know what I mean? Like, really seeing my sensibility. And my sense of humor reflected. I didn't want to make the same music he was making but like, I got a lot of joy out of it. And he worked for the state. He had like, some kind of accounting job or something. Like he went to work like nine to five every day. And he was like a normal dude, like, to the people at his job. He just looked like a normal dude. He didn't have purple hair. He didn't wear a spike jacket. You know, he didn't dress super K. The one thing about him was it like, you know, he had this blonde bob, and sometimes he would wear a string of pearls, like, and I just remember being like, wow, he's like, so interesting. You know what I mean? Because he's not, he's just, but we were like, he's the only person we know with a real job. He's the only person who knows accounting. He's the only person who knows business on any level, we have to trick him into putting our record out. And then we're like on this mission of like, okay, you have this conversation with him and I'll have this conversation with him and then all do this, like Bikini Kill was like, on like a Scooby Doo Mystery mission to get Slim Moon to put out our record, and to like, be our label and to be a real label. And at that time Tinúviel was very, very involved too. It was a co ownership a partnership. And people forget that part of history and it's really important that Tinúviel Sampson was like, speaking of hand printing, she was like silk screening all the album covers she was like, choosing bands. She was like doing a lot of the you know, math and the hard work of the label and Slim wasn't doing it by himself. But yeah.

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Hayes Waring  1:33:38

Didn't she go on to do a Villa Villekula. 

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Kathleen Hanna  1:33:42

Yeah. And then she went on to do Villa Villekula, and she was also in Witchypoo.

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Hayes Waring  1:33:51

And her basement is the Phoenix House basement too?

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Kathleen Hanna  1:33:55

Yes, but it was called to us the Tinúviel Basement Scene. Like we never called it the Phoenix House basement, we called it the Tinúviel Basement Scene. 

‍

Hayes Waring

That's a better name. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna 

I think that's like that one time Kurt and Bill and Tobi were in Witchypoo. It was kind of like how Some Velvet Sidewalk had like revolving people, like Tobi was in that for a minute, Bill was in that for a minute like, but Witchypoo is just like Slim would have a concept of what it was going to be, and then he’d get people to play out his concept. Like an orchestra leader. Olympia has a lot to thank that guy for.

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Hayes Waring  1:34:41

Like a benevolent dictator.

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Kathleen Hanna  1:34:43

Yeah, I mean, I guess I really related to that because you know, when you know, if you don't grow up in the best of circumstances you do learn, learn how to be a good manipulator to survive. And there's something really cool about using you know, your kind of evil strategies for good, you know, like, maybe we didn't learn them for the best reasons. But you know later in life, I think both Slim and I were able to become orchestra leaders in certain ways that were positive and and obviously, you know, we both learned that like, we can't just manipulate people, we have to like, actually ask them and not just tell them what they're gonna do. It was always consensual though. You know what I mean? It was always like…

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Hayes Waring  1:35:33

I know what you mean. Kathi has talked a lot about the beginning of Bikini Kill and that first tour with Ulysses. But Kathi goes to- after that first tour ends in DC with you guys driving. Was it James Canty’s sister's car to DC, Is that correct?

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Kathleen Hanna  1:36:01

I didn't know it was her sister's car…

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Hayes Waring  1:36:06

There was like some death certificate in that glovebox in there?

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Kathleen Hanna  1:36:10

Yeah. And so we named it that, whatever that lady's name was. So I always thought it was an old lady's car. But yeah, that's definitely accurate.

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Hayes Waring  1:36:20

But I think Kathi goes to Europe and says, “Oh, I kind of missed- I don't know what happened with Riot Grrrl.” So maybe you could fill in, you know, what went on. You know, we've talked about, you know, your zines and Jigsaw but we haven't really talked about Bikini Kill zine, and what happened with Riot Grrrl when Kathi was away.

‍

Kathleen Hanna  1:36:46

Yeah, I mean, the the thing that was interesting was we played DC at the end of that Nation of Ulysses tour, I think. And I got the welcoming I always wanted. Like, there was a lot of blowback for Bikini Kill in Olympia. Like a lot of people were really angry at us for some reason, like they were just like, “You're not real feminist,” or, you know, all that shit. Like, “this isn't really political. Feminism has already been solved, or sexism has been solved. There's no sexism in the scene,” like blah, blah, blah. And then we went to DC, and because they already had a politicized scene, it was very interesting that it was like “You're the ones we've been waiting for. We will record you for free.” Like, it was just like night and day. And so we decided to stay there for that summer. And it was either after we recorded or right after she got back. I don't remember but Ian Mackaye from Fugazi recorded us for free with Don Zientara and it was either right before like I said, it was when Kathi was there. So it was either she, we did that recording. I think she we did at the end of the summer, like getting back from Europe.

‍

Hayes Waring  1:38:02

She says that she came back from Europe directly to Olympia to IPU [International Pop Underground Convention]. So.

‍

Kathleen Hanna  1:38:06

Oh yeah. No, so she must have done it. We did that recording first and then she left. Or it could have happened later when we moved there. He just asked us to do it then, I don't really remember. Doesn't matter the timing, but um, the thing with Riot Grrrl? I don't know. So boring to me. Um,

‍

Hayes Waring  1:38:26

Well say, it's your story, say whatever you want to say.

‍

Kathleen Hanna  1:38:29

I mean, I think the interesting part about it that relates to Olympia is that you know, one of the coolest, you know, is both Pat’s last name? Why can't I remember Pat’s last name? 

‍

Hayes Waring  

Which Pat? Pat Malley? 

‍

Kathleen Hanna  Allison, no, Allison and Cindy Wolfe's mom, whatever, Allison and Cindy Wolfe’s mom, Pat, but her name was not Pat Wolfe. [Pat Shively] And now I can't think of her last name but whatever, somebody will know it. Um, you know, she was like, the lesbian feminist gynecologist in town, the only person who performed abortions. She was doing IVF for lesbians before other people around the world were doing it. She was a leader in the community. Like when I ran a karaoke night, she used to trade me that, you know, like free exams if I let her crew come in and always get first dibs on songs. Like you know, I would do like a clinic defending where you like help walk people in when they're being yelled at. Because there were a lot of Right to Life jerks who were like outside of her clinic all the time. It would get really bad and then it would be okay, then get really bad again. And she told us so many things, and she was you know the mom to these two twins who both ended up being Olympia musicians and kind of like, you know, they're identical twins. They're like, historically, they are the Scorpio bitch twins of Olympia, who were like total fucking troublemakers, you know, especially Cindy. But like, and I was best friends with both of them at different times. And Allison was in Bratmobile, and then Cindy and Allison were in a band called Tennessee Twins. They're originally from Tennessee, and they moved to Olympia for high school, and Allison was such a huge influence on me even though she was younger. And I think we had this mutual kind of thing where, you know, her and Molly looked up to us because we were a couple years older. And they're like, “Oh, well, Bikini Kill’s doing that, we can do it too.” And they started Bratmobile, and it was very similar in the thing that like Bikini Kill was a zine first. And we told everybody, we're a band, but we didn't have any songs. And then it was like,

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Hayes Waring  1:40:57

Kathi wanted to say that, “I want to set the record straight. We were a band first and not a zine first.”

‍

Kathleen Hanna  1:41:04

Oh, I thought we were. I thought we were a zine first, but I'll have to talk to her about that accuracy. I mean, she's just mad because I made the zine. She didn't know we're a zine first because she didn't, I didn't put it out until after I was already making the zine. Probably without their permission, true to form. She may not know we were a zine first.

‍

Hayes Waring  1:41:32

Setting the record straight again. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna  1:41:36

Yeah. We'll have to, Yeah, we're definitely gonna have to arm wrestle over this one. But you know, I do feel like we had a thing where we're like, telling people we're Bikini Kill before we had a whole set. You know what I mean and like, there was a certain point where we became Bikini Kill, and everywhere we went together, it wasn't just me and Tobi and Kathi; it was Bikini Kill. 

‍

Hayes Waring  

Right. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna  

And that's anybody who's been in demand, especially in Olympia, understands that feeling of when your life changes from walking into a show by yourself, which I always was, to walking into a show as a member of a band. And it was it, it was a huge, huge change for me. But so, in Olympia, I mean in, in DC, in the summer of ‘91, Molly Neuman from Bratmobile, who'd also, you know, lived in Olympia at various times. And Allison, who was from Olympia, went to high school, in Olympia and everything and whose mom ran the clinic. And, yeah, it was just a great friend. Great, great friend. And she was doing Bratmobile, and we were staying there for the summer. And it was, I wanted to start a magazine, like a legitimate- because at that time, there was no like, I mean, I don't even know if there is one now, there was for a minute there was, Bust is kind of music-y. And like there was one called Venus. And now there's like Guitar Girl or some shit. But there wasn't any music magazines that focused on women. And it was pre internet, so magazines was the way that people communicated. So I was like, talking to everybody in DC, like I don't know how to hang out with people is basically why Riot Grrrl got started. I do not know how to just sit on someone's bed and gossip. I do not know how to do it. I feel completely inept. So I always have to start like a basketball team, or a softball team, or a band or like something so that I can have, I have to work with people to get to, like that's. I'm too uncomfortable to not have an activity planned. You know what I mean? So like, I wanted to meet people in DC, I want to specifically to meet women in bands, what, you know, like, I met Sharon, from Sharon Cheslow, from Chalk Circle, who also did band in DC with Cynthia Connolly. And I don't know that other woman's name off the top of my head, but it's three women made this book that completely changed punk forever, and got people all over the country knowing about the DC scene. Obviously, it's like a canonical text in the music community. And it was written by three women! But anyways, so I wanted to meet the women who made that. I wanted to meet, you know, people from Fire Party, I wanted to meet, you know, different people from, from bands. And I didn't really know how to do it. And so I thought, Oh, I'll start this magazine, in, while I'm in DC, about women in music, and then I can like inter-, and I was already doing like interviews for zines like I did an interview with the woman from the Cynics for Tobi's zine and Jigsaw. I don't know if it ever got published, but um I was, I was interviewing people as a way to get to know them. Even if I probably still have tapes of people you interviewed that I never. I know, I have some turned out stuff that I never put out or did anything with. But like, that's how I would get to know somebody, I would be like I'm going to interview you for this thing, but I really just want to be friends with them. But I didn't know how to say let's be friends. So I've made up this job. 

‍

Hayes Waring

Right. 

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Kathleen Hanna 

But it's kind of it's a little creepy.

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Hayes Waring  1:45:24

It's a little southern.

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Kathleen Hanna  1:45:27

Is it? 

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Hayes Waring

Yeah. 

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Kathleen Hanna

Maryland is very southern, I understand. But yeah, so I was just like, Okay, I'm gonna start this magazine. And I started talking to like, trying to rope Sharon Cheslow into it and trying to rope everyone into it. And Jen Smith, who was in Autoclave and Christina Billotte, who I went to junior high with, who was, I lived in a house. 

‍

Hayes Waring

I didn't know that. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

I also went to junior high with Jenny Toomey. 

‍

Hayes Waring

What? 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

Yeah. And yeah, and some great rock music history about Jenny Toomey, I'll tell you later some other day. But it doesn't really relate to Olympia. The thing that relates to Olympia is that, Allison, I was like, let's start this music magazine, we got to get a bunch of women to come meet somewhere and talk about it. Because I was just informally talking to people we knew. And I was like, we have to open this up to other women who are interested in music. So let's go to some random fucking show with a clipboard. And so we went to a Verbal Assault show. [HW: Oh, wow.] We got up on stage. And, and this is where the, you know, having done spoken word, and stuff like that, like really served me because I wasn't scared. Because I ran a club, and I had to get up on stage and be like, Welcome Fitz of Depression. It wasn't, even though part of me is very shy and insecure. Those experiences made me be like, it's not a big deal, you know what I mean. And so, me and Allison got up. And we're like, Hey, we want to call this meeting about maybe starting a magazine, or, you know, we just want to talk to other women in DC who are interested in music. And we'll be at the back of the club holding this fucking clipboard. And so, you know, that was one of the first times where I had to deal with, you know, men getting mad at me, boys getting mad at me, because they're like, “Why aren’t I invited?” The thing is, if they would have been invited, they wouldn't have shown up. So. And I found that out later, because through various experiments, I've seen that happen many times where it's like, “I want to be included, I want to be included”, it's like, okay, you're included, and then-

Hayes Waring: 

“Oh, I don't need to anymore.”

Kathleen Hanna:

 Yeah, they just want the invite, but they don't really want to work on feminism. You know what I mean, they don't really want to hear like women talking about like being harassed at shows, like, they don't want to talk about whatever. So anyways, um, we don't want that. But it was like, whatever, Allison. and I were kind of used to shit like that. So we sort of were just like, rolled with the punches and learning experience and all that and but we got like 20 names and phone numbers, somewhere around that. And then we had to go to Positive Force House, which is like a punk house in DC, and convince them to let us use their house. And they had a meeting space with like, a big table in it. And they were like, “Why is it separatist?” Like, it was always that thing? Like, “why is it separatist? That's fucked up.” And I was like, Well, you know, when you're on the all girls soccer team, like there's a locker room, that's a separatist space, you're gonna ban that? You know what I mean? Like, I was like, sometimes it's like, important to organize around one aspect of your identity, and, you know, whatever, we had to, it was good for us because we had to present our arguments, or why the meeting should exist before it ever even happened. It wasn't even a thought that it was going to be a consciousness-raising group, or it was going to become anything more than a fact-finding mission. Do women in this community want to write about music? Are there musicians who want to be interviewed? Like, that was what I was looking for. Are there photographers who want to work on this? And then they were like, “Okay, you could have this meeting, where punk women meet and talk about whatever.” And I don't know if I said it was about a magazine or not. I know that in my mind, that was my goal. And then I got there and that fell apart immediately. We met there and Kristin Thomson and Jenny Toomey who ran Simple Machines, record label, they mostly did cassettes at the time. They offered to come. They were very kind. They're very generous and, you know, if anybody wanted to run a record label, they made a fanzine about how to do it. They were not stingy with, they were not gatekeepers, let's say. They, they, they offered everything they had to other women to try and get women to be in bands. And they were both in Tsunami together. And they were a huge part of Riot Grrrl starting because so many people were like, “It's separatists, you guys are messed up.” And they just didn't even, it wasn't even a question. Like they weren't like, “Why?” They're just like, “Oh, that's cool. How can we help?” You know what I mean? Like, they were, like, “Whatever you guys want to do. That's really cool. You're doing something, great. We're not agree with it, but we don't give a shit.” And so then the first meeting started, and I was like, so anybody want to be a part of my magazine? And probably because I said it in that weird voice, nobody- “why are you talking like that? No.” [Laughing] And they like, it just started being this really heavy thing. Um, I had run a teenage sexual assault support group in Olympia, at the Olympia Community Center, when it first opened over by the new bus, I still call it the new bus station for five years. 

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Hayes Waring

They just redid it. So it's kind of the new bus station again. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna 

Okay, it's new again. And so I, it basically turned it into that, like, it was like, you know, all these girls, they were younger than us, I was 23, 24. I don't know how old I was. I was in my early 20’s. But I was not a teenager anymore. And a lot of these girls were teenagers. And they were just like, they had never been in an all- female space before. And so some of them were just crying. Because they had never been in a room with only women. And they felt different. And it was like a shift for them. And it felt like everybody was taking this huge sigh of relief. And then the sigh of relief got really upsetting. And so they would cry. It was just really like, there's a lot of tears that happened in the first few meetings like, um, you know, just, I, I had never heard that girls in the hardcore scene, because I was never really interested in hardcore music, or even though I kind of wasn't a hardcore band, in a way because Bikini Kill sounded very much like a hardcore band at certain times. But I wasn't really into hardcore music, per se. And a lot of these girls were, and they had, like, the haircuts to prove it. And they're, like, talked about being called coat-hangers. And I’d never heard that. And I was like, oh, is that some abortion thing? Like, you know what I mean? “No, like, no, they call this coat-hangers because we hold our boyfriends coats while they dance.” I just found that so disgusting. 

‍

Hayes Waring

And pretty gross. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna 

It was kind of like Escape Eddie or something like that, you know? Just like,

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Hayes Waring  1:53:08

Kind of 50s too.

‍

Kathleen Hanna  1:53:09

Yeah, it was just like calling a woman a coat hanger. I was like, Wow. Um, and so a lot of them were just really relieved that somebody had, all we did all me and Allison did was we're like, Okay, you have permission. That was it. We didn't do shit. We were just like, Okay, we're putting a meeting in this room. We're all sitting around this table, talk about whatever you want. Like, that's it. Like, girls wanted to hang out together and wanted to talk. But there were so many cultural things keeping us apart. And there were so many things of like, I think a lot of us in that room had so often been the only girl in the room with a bunch of guys. And we were all together, talking about what it felt like to be the lone girl in a group of guys who feels like she has to put down other girls in order to survive in that space. And so I think, for a lot of those younger girls, it was this really cathartic moment, because they had been standing at separate places in the room, holding their boyfriends’ coats, not talking to each other. And they were finally like, “Why are we holding our boyfriend's coats? What the fuck is going on?” And, you know, I was bummed because I wanted to run a magazine, it clearly was not going to happen, but it felt really like I would be killing a baby seal if we didn't keep doing it. So we kept doing it. And it just became apparent that it wasn't really something for me. Um, that it was something that was, like I was hoping more that it would get girls to start bands and it did in the end, not in that particular DC group, necessarily. There wasn't a lot of bands that came out in that group. But also just encouraging girls to write zines, and a lot of zines came out of that group. And encouraging girls to, it wasn't just about being in a band. It was about setting up shows and being an actual producer of events as opposed to just on the sidelines holding a coat. And, but it just really wasn't. It wasn't. It ended up not being for me, because it was like, do you know about AA at all? Or do you know about the history of AA? 

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Hayes Waring 

I do.

‍

Kathleen Hanna

I just watched this movie about Bill W, the guy is, it's on Netflix, or no Amazon. It's how he started AA I mean, I wish I knew more about organizations, and I could have had been a part with other women of creating some kind of structure. Because in one way, the structure-lessness like, as Riot Grrrl became known in the punk scene, and then it was called Riot Grrrl. Because Allison and Molly- mainly Molly had started a zine called Riot Grrrl. People just associated us with that zine. It was like a pocket-sized zine about sexism in music. And I wrote for it. Tobi wrote for it. I think Christina Billotte, might have done something. Like just a lot of people who knew each other or friends wrote for it. And somehow somebody started calling the meetings that, and then it just stuck. And so as it became more known, part of the thing was, anybody can start a group anywhere and do whatever they want with it. It's not copywritten. We're not trying to own it. We're trying to encourage, like we're trying to encourage participation, encourage different women to start different kinds of meetings, like whatever they want. There were meetings, where they were co-ed, there were meetings that were more based on other ideas of identity, there's all different kinds of meetings happened all over the world, like Malaysia had a Riot Grrrl like, you know, there were Riot Grrrl meetings in Argentina. It really went kind of worldwide. And I didn't have anything to do with it. I mean, it just got around. And then girls and women in the punk scene started their own groups. But the thing I was gonna say about AA is that, that I really related to this movie I saw recently was that the guy who started it, he really needed AA, but he became known as the leader of AA. And so when he went to an AA meeting, everybody looked at him like a leader, and he felt like he couldn't share. Because everybody, it was anonymous for everybody else. But for him because he was kind of like, you know, revered as the star-, the person who started it, the founder, um, if he shared his experience, that could be really difficult and really, that he didn't want everybody to know. Nobody would respect his anonymity. They would share his experience with other people. And I definitely don't think Riot Grrrl's as hugely, wildly important as AA which is just one of the best- as the Dalai Lama said the most or no, as Gandhi said, it was like the most important Western export to ever exist. I don't mean to compare them like, Riot Grrrl is that important, I just mean that I. I understood the experience of like, it wasn't serving me, because as somebody who was in their 20’s, and who I had my own abuse issues I needed to talk to and stuff to stress me out and things in the scene that I was dealing with. But when I talked, people would tell other people what I said, and so it wasn't anonymous to me. And we had an agreement that when things we said were supposed to be, but they weren't for me. And I understand that because I was in a band that a lot of the girls looked up to, they were very young. I don't fault anybody for that. It just really, really was not something that was going to help me it was more. It was a younger thing. It was for younger people. And they needed to run it and they needed to decide what happened. And it also became this kind of like, albatross where, you know, anything any girl with a baby barrette in her hair did, was brought back to me like I had some Morse code and I was controlling- you know, it's just sexism. It's like, we all knew each other like, you know, right. “Oh, you're a feminist. You know, Gloria Steinem.” Oh, yeah. She's my best friend. Like, you know what I mean? It was like, people treated me like I was controlling all these girls. So when girls with like really huge abuse histories were acting like assholes because they didn't know how to deal with the limited amount of power they were finally coming into, I was blamed for it. And I was like, I didn't I wasn't there at that show or that woman yelled at that band, like that other girl band, you know, like, I wasn't even there. Why am I being blamed for this, but I just sort of was like, I was happy it was happening. I tried to just cross my fingers that there were groups that were doing good things, because I saw groups that like, especially the Olympia group, just kind of deteriorated into this really nasty, you know, precursor to the bad parts of cancel culture, because I think there's great parts of cancel culture, but into this like really identity politics, like white women pointing the finger at each other kind of situation that was not productive at all. That made me sad, especially because I had more hope for specifically, like the Olympia branch of Riot Grrrl. And there was some great people involved. But all it takes is one destructive monster to you know, make things shitty, and I watched that happen. But I also just was like, you knew what, I wanted to be in a band. Like life’s been hard enough. Like I can't have a full time job of like running a fucking movement and write songs and go on tour and have, I had a real job like a full time job. How was I supposed to do all of it? So I had to cut something out. And so I just kind of walked away from Riot Grrrl.

‍

Hayes Waring  2:01:34

But still in the summer of 1991, you did have two bands in DC. Is that the Wonder Twins and Suture?

‍

Kathleen Hanna  2:01:40

Yeah. And Suture was with Sharon Cheslow. And Wonder Twins was with Tim Green from Nation of Ulysses and Laura McDougal from Snake Pit, which was a band Bill was in before Bikini Kill.

‍

Hayes Waring  2:01:55

Oh, wow. And that's, again, I just want to you know, say that's all, what you said was so tremendous. And then you still had two other bands.

‍

Kathleen Hanna  2:02:09

Those are side projects though.

‍

Hayes Waring 

But they’re bands. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna 

Yeah, no, I mean, when we. So we came back home for IPU [International Pop Underground Convention] in Olympia, which I don't know how you feel about IPU or whatever. 

‍

Hayes Waring  2:02:23

But what do you feel about it? Oh, that's that's a great segue, because I did want to talk about IPU.

‍

Kathleen Hanna  2:02:28

I wish you could see my face because I'm holding my face in my hands right now. I don't know how to describe.

‍

Hayes Waring  2:02:34

Well, this is this is the thing that I want to know what you think about IPU is because you put out a tape, that's called A Wonderful Treat. And that compilation tape, and I want to know more about that.

‍

Kathleen Hanna  2:02:48

You know, also Nikki McClure, excuse me, I had a fizzy water and I keep burping. Whenever I think about the tape, I think about the inspiration for that tape was Nikki McClure saying, “oh, all these people are coming to town. I'm going to sell burritos.” And I was like, oh shit, I gotta get my shit together. All these people are coming to town. I need some kind of thing to sell. And so I basically just went to everyone I knew who was in a band, and said, “Do you have any extra songs that I could put on this tape?” And then I went to everybody's house or apartment with the Polaroid camera. And I took photos of everybody. And I was so excited because Kinkos had gotten a color xerox. Because like, that's the other part of Olympia, but it's Lacey. We got a Kinko's that you can do it yourself because you used to have to go to the copy place by the library and hand it to them.

‍

Hayes Waring  2:03:48

Yes, they're still there.

‍

Kathleen Hanna  2:03:50

Well, then they got a copy machine that you could use on your own, but it was like more expensive. So it was like, whatever. I was deep into the thing of like, because I made the most of the flyers for Reko Muse. I made flyers for a lot of other people's bands. I made political flyers, I was always, I always was making flyers, like I feel like I had a desk with flyers stuff on it, like at all times. But so Kinkos is such a huge deal. Like people don't, I don't know what people do now. They go to Staples, and just, I don't know, but every new like, we got a copy machine that had black and red on it called the [Mira?] copy machine at the Lacey one, and my friend worked there. And he would give me one of those key cards that was like completely full. And then he'd like swipe it out at that at the end so I didn't have to pay. So I started making stuff with being able to make things that had red and black on them. And I was like my whole world is changed because everything was black and white, or black on colored paper. Sorry, I digress. These are the things I think about Olympia that are really important.

‍

Hayes Waring  2:04:55

That's the art you know, that's the, you know, the art shapes the vision, you know?

‍

Kathleen Hanna  2:04:59

Yeah. Well the box that’s around it of like what's possible. Well, they had a color copier, I really want to use it, and that was another reason for that tape was I wanted to use the color copier to make the tape case thing the 

‍

Hayes Waring

The J card. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna 

The J card, is it really called that? I wanted to make the J card. Why is it, called a jewel case card, is that

‍

Hayes Waring  2:05:24

I think because of the folds or something because there's an S card too. We can talk about this.

‍

Kathleen Hanna  2:05:30

Anyway, so I wanted to make the J card. It sounds so nasty, J card. I wanted to use color copies. So I did the -.The Polaroids came out so beautiful, especially the one of Tobi and Allison. Molly that. Again, it was like my chance to do photography. Like I was always looking for a chance to do the things I really like to do, like graphic design and photography. So I did that, and then made that tape and then just sold it to everybody who came. I paid everybody involved. I didn't really make any money, but I -

‍

Hayes Waring  2:06:04

You paid everybody off the tape? 

‍

Kathleen Hanna  2:06:08

Yeah. 

‍

Hayes Waring

That’s a feat. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

I mean, like $40. You know what I mean? It wasn't like, 

‍

Hayes Waring

Still good. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

Yeah. But it was like, it was also like I needed something to do when I felt awkward at IPU with all these people coming to town, like wanna buy a tape? You know, and that was, it was like, I need, it was this feeling of like, here when your town that all of a sudden has some tourism? And you're like, how am I going to benefit from this? Which I know is totally like, I'm a capitalist monster. But it's also just like, 

‍

Hayes Waring

It's very Evergreen. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

There was something very fearful about having all these people come, I think. There was something really like nerve wracking, but then there was something super exciting about like Billy Childish, wandering around the streets drunk. You know what I mean? Like, what? Why is Billy Childish… You know what I mean? Like,

‍

Hayes Waring  2:07:02

It's like a folk hero. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna  2:07:04

Yeah, I know? And then, and then you're just like, you know, you know, people coming to your town, and in a way you feel like, wow, they're gonna get to, … I don't think we realized how amazing it was at the time. But there was a certain thing of like, we have to protect what we have, or I don't know what it was. But the thing that really made me feel weird about it was that Nirvana had just signed to a major label. And then there was like a tagline. I don't remember… was like, there was a tagline that was like, “destroy the major label ogre”?

‍

Hayes Waring  2:07:37

Oh, the corporate overlord. Yeah.

‍

Kathleen Hanna  2:07:41

Something like that. And it was like, I felt like it was directly relate, because everybody was talking about like, Kurt, Krist, you know, left Olympia. I think they were in LA, maybe recording their major label debut. And I don't know if the guy who ran K with Candice Pederson, I don't know if he personally felt like, oh, he wanted to put out their album, or that they should have not been major and… the K records people were the ones who put on IPU. So I don't know if it was like a personal thing that was being recast as a political thing. You know, like, there definitely is a thing in Olympia, where it's like, don't leave, like don't leave us. Like if we have something special. We don't want you to take it away from us. So it's like, Nirvana was never ours. I mean, they're from Aberdeen. You know what I mean? Like, if anybody should be like, “Oh, we feel bad that they left.” It should be people in Aberdeen. But I think that because, you know, they've been playing around Olympia, and they were like a total beloved band and like, their shows were awesome. Like, I saw them playing like, K dorm and like, I'd never really gotten them until that night, and I just had so much fun. It was such a great show. And I was like, Oh my God, they're, Kurt’s so good. Like he's such a good songwriter. Geez, I didn't. I didn't realize I didn't like–I felt it was pointed at Nirvana. I felt that the convention even though it was a cool thing. I felt like the advertising for it was sort of like– 

‍

Hayes Waring 

A little too personal? 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

Yeah, it felt pointed at Kurt. It felt definitely pointed at Kurt. Like you left us, you left Olympia. And look at us. Were the really cool kids who stayed indie and we have our own conventions, and we're gonna do stuff outside of corporations, but you're a sellout. And I just feel like that attitude is really classist and gross. Like, you know, I mean, like people have to make money and live their lives, and some people, that's their goal. They want to be on a major label, and we should applaud that. We should be like, congratulations, we shouldn't be like “You're an asshole.” You know, and like, people who want to stay indie, great. People want to be a major labels. Great, there's room for all of us. But that part of it rubbed me the wrong way. But um, and then they have this thing called Girl Night and it made me feel a little strange. We weren’t talked to about it or asked about it. And I felt like Bikini Kill and Bratmobile were like, kind of the feminist bands in Olympia and like, we've been gone. But it was like, we weren't asked to help organize it or you know, and then it was like, it felt like the guy from K organized it, and it was sort of like, we couldn't have a woman organize this? I mean, we were so persnickety and picky back then like you are when you're young, where you find fault in everything and like, but I will say it was a really eventful night because Heavens to Betsy played their first show. And everybody was crying. I mean, like, the guy who was yelling “Shut up, you suck” was not crying. But everybody else who had any kind of taste. Um, you know, people were really blown away by Corin Tucker, and Tracy Sawyer, who were high school girls, maybe they’d just started college, but I had known them or met them when they were in high school. I think they may have still been in high school. Tracy was definitely still in high school. Corin may have been a freshman in college, not at Evergreen, but in Eugene. And when I first met Corin, she interviewed Bikini Kill at The Martin. Just me, Tobi and Kathi. 

‍

Hayes Waring 

Oh, really?

‍

Kathleen Hanna

And she was doing a project that I think she conceptualized, and I mean, I don't know if you're interviewing her for this, but like, it'd be really interesting. I really would love to know. I feel like when she first was interviewing us, it was a project for school, and it was a movie and I have a copy of it somewhere. It's like, it started out that she was very, not into Bikini Kill and not into like, I think she saw us as separatists. She hung out with like the vegan guys with the baggy pants who were like, you know, animal rights is the real abuse and feminism is stupid. And they're all like mean old middle class white guys. So it was like funny that they're like, animals are more important than women. Like, but she was hanging out in that scene. And so she interviewed us for this film she was, or movie she was making for her class in Eugene, I think it was in Eugene. And I wasn't really sure of what it was about. And I don't think she was really sure. And she seemed very antagonistic towards us a little bit, like, kind of like, “explain yourself,” like, you know, “why do you think feminism is important,” or, I don't know, stuff like that. She seemed antagonistic at first. And then as I started, like, you know, you hear stuff in Olympia, you know, everything about everybody. And so it's like, and then she interviewed Allison and Allison Wolfe set at Thekla, which I don't know what it's now, and then it became the Surf [Club]... 

‍

Hayes Waring 

Surf Club? 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

Yeah, the Surf Club, but it was called the– 

‍

Hayes Waring 

Tropicana?

‍

Kathleen Hanna

No, it was, it was the Surf Club, but Surf Club was actually called something different. It's called the New Surf Club. I don't remember what it was called. But the– 

‍

Hayes Waring 

North Shore Surf Club? 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

North Shore Surf Club, that’s what it was. So somehow, during this woman, she interviews Allison. Allison, genius, brings The Dwarves cover that was put out by Sub Pop. The Dwarves, that band, and it's like…

‍

Hayes Waring  2:13:52

It's pretty rough.

‍

Kathleen Hanna  2:13:54

Yeah, so it's an image of- for those listening who do not know, it's an image of I think a white woman, she looks pretty white. Really, like good looking kind of model. Um, you can see her breasts and pretty much everything. And she's covered in blood. And then there's, like, a little person over in the corner, who also is covered in blood, and I think you can see his dick, I'm not sure. But the whole thing was like, “We're shocking. We're anti PC.” And this was really kind of very “shock rock.” And it was during that time period where kind of the anti PC brigade started, showing up kind of in the Northwest scene in a big way where it was like, I think things started splitting off between people who were accepting of like, you know, feminism and that women should be allowed in the scene. And then guys who are like, “Yeah, it's fine. Anything, it's fine, but will you suck my dick?” um, you know, or like saying, you know, horrible sexist jokes, you know, domestic violence woman in the microwave jokes and stuff like that and you're just like, oh yeah, you're real, this is an alternative, and you're like alternative to what? And The Dwarves cover was a very big representation of that to a lot of us, where it was like, you know, Sub Pop put out some of the most the most important singles to what the feminist punk scene became because they put out L7, they put out Luna Chicks, they put out Hole they put out Babes in Toyland, Fastbacks. They put out so many different, but they have this specific singles club and it was like almost all women and it was really influential and Tobi would, like, wait for them and be excited for them and then get them and then bring them to my apartment and we'd listen to them. You know, like, it was a big deal. It was like a really cool thing. And then they put up The Dwarves’ record and they approve of that cover, I guess. And it was sort of like, you know, we lived in the Northwest. It's serial killer country. So it's like, you- really?- have a naked woman covered in blood. Like, you know, and like I said, I worked at a domestic violence shelter. I don't want to see that shit. As a sex ploy? You know, because it was a sexy woman covered in blood, which made it even worse. I don't even need to explain it. But so, Allison, held it up during the interview with Corin Tucker, who later, you know, started Sleater-Kinney that kind of became a very famous Olympia band, Olympia-based band and named after Sleater-Kinney Road in Lacey. But Allison holding up that record, was just this really important moment and saying, “This isn't okay, this isn't okay with us.” And I think at some point, maybe during that interview or another interview, Corin’s mind started getting opened. Like, I don't know, you'd have to ask her. I can't talk for her. But I felt like at the beginning of the project, when she interviewed us, she had one attitude. And then by the end of the project after she interviewed a bunch of people, she had a totally different attitude. And I think she named her project Revolution Girl Style Now. 

‍

Hayes Waring

Oh, really? 

‍

Kathleen Hanna 

Yeah. It's like a 20 minute VHS of a bunch of bands from that time period talking about feminism and music.

‍

Hayes Waring  2:17:31

Is that really something that you put on your tape recorder?

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Kathleen Hanna  2:17:36

Me, what do you mean?

‍

Hayes Waring  2:17:37

Someone told me once that you had one of those labelers. And then you had one of those, you know, the tape recorders where it's like kind of a boom box, but it has a mic built into it, and you can record on it, too. And then you had one of those and you had the labeler, and you wrote Revolution Girl Style Now on it.

‍

Kathleen Hanna  2:17:57

Oh, I don't remember that. But um, it could be totally true. I have no idea but I think Bikini Kill was already active. And we already started saying that. Because that was the name of our demo tape.

‍

Hayes Waring  2:18:12

It's a very catchy title.

‍

Kathleen Hanna  2:18:15

I read a lot of weird stuff in my journal, and then I would just like open it up and be like, what about that?

‍

Hayes Waring  2:18:21

Brilliant. I love the workflow. Well, I love that. I love those stories from IPU. What other bands were you in at that time? Are you in The Fakes at that time with Wonder Twins’ Tim Green? 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

Yeah. 

‍

Hayes Waring

He's one of those guys has that reel to reel right?

‍

Kathleen Hanna  2:18:42

He had more than a reel to reel. He also had my heart, because we were together for like two or two and a half years, and he left Ulysses when I left DC. We left together um, drove away during a snowstorm. 

‍

Hayes Waring

Very romantic. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

Yeah, it wasn't though. It was really, it was a really hard trip, but he ended up moving into the Red House and into the garage. And I also lived in a garage. It was funny; we both lived in garages. I actually lived in a house underneath, underneath Carrie who is in Sleater Kinney lived in the actual house, and then I lived in the garage of the house, and then Billy lived in like the sub-garage. Like we kind of split the garage that like, if you're gonna kill me, you'd have to go through Bill to kill me, but yeah, we obviously were not wealthy at the time. But what were we talking about, I forget because I was thinking about somebody trying to murder me and Bill actually trying to stop them which is kind of funny. 

‍

Hayes Waring  2:19:57

It is super funny. We were talking about bands you were in at the time, and I was talking about The Fakes with Tim Green. And 

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Kathleen Hanna  2:20:04

Yeah, that was just like, I mean,

‍

Hayes Waring  2:20:05

You put out a record, didn't you? 

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Kathleen Hanna  2:20:08

Yeah, we put out a record, and, I guess the most important thing about that was that I, it was my first time going to a mastering place and, and attending a mastering session. And so I learned what that was about. And it was basically about me smoking cigarettes in the parking lot crying, because the whole record was like, the whole record was stuff about sexual abuse. It was like spoken word, I was trying to get back to that world. And so a bunch of kind of Riot Grrrl style characters from Olympia did like some really heavy duty spoken word. And then me and Tim's band did stuff and it was like whatever. And I went to this mastering place that Slim had told me to go to.

‍

Hayes Waring

Do you remember what it was called? 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

Or I think Donna put it out, Chainsaw put it out. And someone told me to go there. And we went there. And the guy was like, looked like, he was from the 50’s. Like, he had a suit and tie on. He was like greasy hair. Like dad guy, like dad from the 50’s. And then, I'm listening. We're mastering it. It's a spoken word. It's like, and then he raped me in the shower. You know what I mean? And I'm like, Oh, my God, this guy is probably having a nervous breakdown. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I felt so, I felt bad for the guy. I felt embarrassed. And I was like, I remember thinking nobody should make a record like this, like, how dare I. It was so scary! It was like the whole, like, the whole record, had this whole under-riding- I was dealing with, like, abuse stuff from my childhood at the time. And then there's these intense spoken word pieces by other people on it, because I wasn't doing spoken word anymore. And Tim and I were just making this weird music that I didn't really know what we were doing. We were just like a couple who was like, trying to, he was trying to help me realize some of my ideas, and he was so respectful and so helpful. And he loved recording. He still loves recording. He got, God, maybe 12 track, 24 track, I don't know. He got a big board of some type in his bedroom. And so he just really wanted to use it, and dump everything again on reel to reel, but it was probably like half inch reel to reel now. We've moved up in the world from like, you know, quarter inch reel to reel to half inch. But he was like, really wanted to use this stuff, really was always very kind about, you know, teaching people how to use things and all that. So that's just sort of how that happened was, we were just experimenting around when Bikini Kill wasn't practicing. And he had just left his band and needed something to do. And then yeah, it taught me a lot about mastering because, in listening to that record, which I still, I don't think the record was successful at all. I feel like it was, but I feel like it was a failure that I really needed to have. But it wasn't a failure because it was too intense. It just, it wasn't artfully done. And it wasn't skillfully done. And I think it was really oppositional and not progressive, and there's a lot of problems I have with it. But that feeling that I had to get over of like being embarrassed about talking about sexual abuse in front of someone I didn't know. I had to get over that in a mastering studio. 

‍

Hayes Waring  2:23:36

It's a very vulnerable process, at every time.

‍

Kathleen Hanna  2:23:41

Yeah, I mean, even when you're just like singing about like, you know, flowers and rainbows, it still feels like you're, you have your underwear off and like your butt, fluorescent light. You know what I mean? Like yeah, oh, really bad. But when it's like, you know these songs about like your dad, you know what I mean? With like a music box playing in the background. You're totally like, oh my god, I'm gonna melt.

‍

Hayes Waring  2:24:03

It's horrible. You also made a movie at this time. It's called The Stupid Punks. Is that what it's called?

‍

Kathleen Hanna  2:24:12

I have it. It's digitized, but it's all fucked up. It's a whole bunch of parts because we just kept it on video for so long. I'm so happy you're asking me about this stuff? Because this is stuff that's going to be lost. This is all going to be lost to history. All of it.

‍

Hayes Waring  2:24:28

Well can you tell us a little bit more? It was about the the Olympia music scene?

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Kathleen Hanna  2:24:34

what this time what happened was that you know, Nirvana got really famous, and like Bikini Kill had it's like mini rising star and…

‍

Hayes Waring  2:24:48

Big rising star.

‍

Kathleen Hanna  2:24:50

Well, it depends on who you ask. But you know, like we got written up like we would have a couple sentences in Spin or Rolling Stone or whatever, 

‍

Hayes Waring

Guitar World. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

Guitar World. Well, yeah. I was actually in a Heavy Metal magazine and I, I actually got like a, you know, they do kind of like a poster. It was like a poster of me and I was like, Oh my god, I won. Like, it's one of the only pieces of press I kept like, I won. I have a little poster of myself in Heavy Metal magazine. But um, and it was Bikini Kill. It's like, what? They just probably couldn't find any other women. And it was like, probably women's month. But anyways- 

Hayes Waring 

No. [Laughing]

‍

Kathleen Hanna

Getting back to Stupid Punks. Stupid Punks was actually a super important project to me. And not to toot my own horn, but it was a very early mockumentary, before Christopher Guest. And before people were making mockumentaries, 

‍

Hayes Waring  2:25:45

I was gonna say that. I was like, oh, should we talk about Mighty Wind? Before we talk about this?

‍

Kathleen Hanna  2:25:51

I was very interested in who gets to tell history? Right?

‍

Hayes Waring  2:25:57

It's a big deal. Very apropos for right now. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna  2:26:04

Yeah. But part of the thing was that, you know, like, even though we moved to DC, for like a year and a half or something, I lived in Olympia off and on for 11 years. And I'd moved every three years since I was born. So this was the longest, Olympia is, was at that time, the longest, that was a place that I had spent the longest. And so I considered it my hometown. Because when people asked me, my hometown, I don't know what to say. And so I was really proud to say, on tour everyday with Bikini Kill, we're Bikini Kill, and we're from Olympia, Washington. Because I finally felt like I had a home. So when that home was invaded, by people who wanted to consume it in a really capitalist way. And luckily, because Tobi had taught me about capitalism and taught me about classism, and, you know, given me books to read about it, again, didn't happen at Evergreen happened at the Martin apartments, with someone who wasn't even in college, giving me these books, which I think is really interesting. Um, but so it was really strange that after Olympia started getting a name for itself, and it became the new scene, right? It was like Seattle, grunge. That's the scene. Then, Olympia Riot Grrrl. That's the scene. And that's when, you know, we saw at Evergreen, there used to be ABC and D dorm. And then it was all the way to like P. They had to build like 20 new dorms, because so many people wanted to go there. What's really interesting is like, they censored my artwork, and I had to start something on my own, in order to feel heard as an artist. And yet, they reap the benefits of what not only me and my friends were doing, but what K had done before us, what Stella Mars had done, Girl City, like all this stuff that had happened in Olympia before I ever even set foot there. All this groundwork that the kids and the freaks and the nerds had started, you know, Evergreen reaps the profits of that. You know, they're the ones who saw their attendance, the people wanting to get in, quadruple in one year, because these bands put Olympia on the fucking map. You know? 

‍

Hayes Waring  2:28:40

The same can be said for the city, too.

‍

Kathleen Hanna  2:28:43

Yeah, same thing could be said for the city. Absolutely. And yet always treated like in real life. You're always like, Oh, God, I'm gonna get killed. You know…

‍

Hayes Waring  2:28:54

Or your club’s gonna get shut down. 

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Kathleen Hanna  2:28:58

Yeah. And so, we were already talking about…

‍

Hayes Waring  2:29:03

Stupid Punks. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

Stupid Punks! 

‍

Hayes Waring

This beautiful movie.

‍

Kathleen Hanna  2:29:07

It's beautiful movie. It's actually, it's pretty- It's not great. But the, the premise was,

‍

Hayes Waring  2:29:13

There's a review that I have here in front of me. And… 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

No. 

‍

Hayes Waring 

Yes, it is. It's from this from Tobi Vail. And the review is, “It's amazing.”

‍

Kathleen Hanna  2:29:26

And you have it, that's like, she's like my sister, cousin person. She's like my sister wife. She has to say that. Our real husband will divorce us both. So the whole thing is that, and I'm sure Tobi could talk about this much more eloquently than I. Obviously I'm stumbling over my words on this. I'll tell you a little anecdote. I remember going to the Lucky Seven house. I don't know if that's in the lexicon of the Olympia archive 

‍

Hayes Waring  2:29:57

Oh, yeah, it was a group house in Olympia, Washington that a lot of people lived in. And a lot of shows happened, that was off of 4th Ave.

‍

Kathleen Hanna  2:30:10

Yeah, it is named after… 

‍

Hayes Waring

…the convenience store right next door. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

Yeah. called Lucky Seven.

‍

Hayes Waring  2:30:15

It is now a hospice for people that have cats that have cancer.

‍

Kathleen Hanna  2:30:23

Wow. Um That's intense. So, Justin Trosper from Unwound lived there. Jessica Espeleta. Um, I can't remember who else. Some cute boys live there. Sometimes they're cute, sometimes they were like nasty, but whatever. There was a bunch of boys that lived there. And they would have parties and they had music stuff set up in the basement. Bikini Kill played there. Like, everybody played the Lucky Seven house. And, and the parties were always really fun and good natured, and like, whatever. I'm sure I walked up to more than one person though and said, “Do you have the balls to drink with me?” [laughing] No, I remember going to Lucky Seven house parties before everyone heard about Olympia and it was the new scene, and everybody wanted to go to Evergreen. Evergreen was one of the top schools in the country now. And da duh da duh da, all of a sudden, the town was kind of invaded by people who wanted to consume K, Kill Rock Stars, Riot Grrrl bands. All that stuff, you know that the history of Nirvana, take pictures of themselves outside of on Pear Street. You know, where Kurt lived over by, and Slim lived there, too. That's how I even met Kurt was through Slim. But anyways, people came with this idea of consuming a scene that was very much based on participation, which was again, something that Tobi always talked about and really rubbed off on me, which was like, the idea is to have people participate. The idea of our band is to ask questions, not give answers. The idea is to, even when guys were yelling shit at us, I at least had the feeling of like, something's happening. People are participating, even if they're participating in this despicable evil way, they're still moved enough by it to say something, which is better than being a boring band nobody cares about, which is better than just staring at your shoes and not saying anything, you know, like. So this idea of participation I felt was what made Olympia, Olympia. And so when the people who were creating the scene, constantly making things happen, you know Justin putting on shows, Slim with the record label, you know, Tobi doing stuff, people starting bands together, people helping each other record, this whole kind of, you know, culture, and Corin Tucker's making a film about Riot Grrrl before it exists, like, I mean, it's pretty amazing, right? Girls starting a venue and art gallery just because it needs to happen. Like, people, the kids who started GESCCO [Greater Evergreen Students' Community Cooperation Organization]. All those bands from back then. Doris, you know, probably one of the first all girl bands in Olympia. 

‍

Hayes Waring

Love Doris. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

The Witch House, which was a separatist feminist house before anybody could conceptualize of that, you know?

‍

Hayes Waring

Before the curse? 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

Before the curse. And anyways, it was very frustrating going to this one Lucky Seven house show after this sort of influx of new people had come. And realizing like me, and Bill, I think the instruments were just sitting there and people just started kind of going up and playing. And then me and Bill and maybe Justin or somebody else were like, oh, let's, let's play. So we grabbed some instruments we started playing. And that's when people had those cameras that were like, disposable cameras and like all these kids pulled out their disposable cameras and were like taking pictures and like, they were staring at us like really, statues or something like we were like historical figures. And it's from that moment on in Olympia, it started to feel like everything I did or said was like taken as this historical, like I was like George Washington or something, you know, like, and I, George Washington's dead. Like I don't want to be George Washington. I want to be a person who's like, still making stuff. But then it started to feel like, so I actually did a pop up art gallery show, and I put on a show called 3D Freak Volcano, and I did this harm reduction, cabaret night thing, and I was still you know, doing things and making things happen and, and people were very appreciative for the most part. But I did start to notice that it was harder to get people to, who weren't, who didn't live in Olympia prior to this kind of onslaught of people. There were a few people who came like, Mike Kunka, from godheadSilo who came from Minot[(, North Dakota)]. And we'd met him on tour, like, I remember him coming. And Tobi talking about this too. Like, he started putting on shows. He was in a band. He's kept doing things like, because Tobi was like, if everybody we meet on tour, we tell them about Olympia. And they're like, oh, we want to move there, then what's going to happen to Minot? Right? 

‍

Hayes Waring

Right. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

Like, if they're the movers and shakers of Minot, do, that sucks if they leave, because then who do we hang out with when we go to Minot if they lived down the street from us now. So like, there was this whole kind of knowledge that like, you know, I don't know, that. While there were people like Mike Kunka, there were way more people who came to just consume it and critique it. And like, a lot of young women came and felt very intimidated. Like, they saw Riot Grrrl as the second coming of God. And therefore I was Jesus. And so they would stare at me all the time. And they'd come up to me in coffee shops, and then it started to be this I love you, I hate you thing where they're like, the only way they could interact with me was to write a mean fanzine about me and then give it to me at the coffee shop. So I'd have to react to it. And it just, like, sucked for me personally, like, which, you know, I put on this art show, and all my friends participated. And it was great. I had a wonderful experience. But at the same time, there are a lot of people who just came to gawk, and to complain that it wasn't what they would have done. I'm like, then fucking do what you do. Right? There were a lot of people who came to sit on the armchair and like, make comments and not, it was like pre internet, like trolls. So they were in your face, right? Like, just– 

‍

Hayes Waring

In a gallery 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

…would go to parties and sit there with a scowl on their face. While we're all trying to like do something positive or interesting, at least. And then there's like, 10 kids hanging out in the corner, scowling being like, “Oh, you're the clique. You guys are like the old guard.” And they had to, in a capitalist fashion, create the new guard. And I remember one of them. And I hope you can find this flyer, [?] movie about this flyer. There was a flyer that these people put up, that was basically about how cliquey Olympia was and how, like, “you don't say hi to me on the street. And that's really fucked up. And you're not welcoming. And you're not this.” And it's like, if you've lived in Olympia for more than one week, you know people don't say hi to you. You can't say hi to Long Hair Dave every time you pass him, you're gonna pass him 55 times a day. Like, if you say hi to him, every time you are never your voice is gonna give out right? So like, you just sort of give a head nod or whatever, because you're, you know, I'm going to see Justin Trosper at the Smithfield [Cafe], then I'm going to see him skateboarding in the park, then I'm going to see him at a party that night, then I'm going to, you know what I mean? I'm going to see him at Bayview [Bayview Thriftway, grocery store]. Like, I'm going to see Justin Trosper 10 times today. I'm not going to say hi every fucking time and stop and say, how's your band? Because that's one of the weirdest questions you can ask somebody. It's like, How's it going with your girlfriend? “We just broke up”, like, you know what I mean? If you've lived there, and you've done things and been productive, you know not to ask somebody about how their band is doing because bands are almost falling apart. You know what I mean like, I don't, I would never, never ask Mikey, like, how's the band going? You know what I mean? Cuz it's like, he'd be like, “Oh, you know.’

‍

Hayes Waring  2:38:49

Yeah, we were in a fight.

‍

Kathleen Hanna  2:38:51

Yeah, or like whatever. And, or like, you know, we went to play this, went to play this club in Yelm and nobody would put up flyers, only two people showed up. And so we had to call our friends for Kennewick, like, you know what I mean? Like, you're just like, you just don't ask. So these people like who didn't know shit about Olympia, like, put these flyers everywhere there was like, “why aren't you welcoming me?” I'm like, why don't you take your dirty diaper off? Like, it's not my fucking problem. You're not my baby. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, we're all living our lives and like, we're not being elitist because we're living our lives and we get things done. And because we're making things happen, it's like, I was like, spending my energy to make things happen for other people to participate in and enjoy. You don't have to participate in everything. Sometimes you can just go to a show and enjoy it. You don't have to fucking participate. But it'd be great if you were taking whatever gift you know, the world gave you and you're sharing it with your town. You know, and not because you're too insecure to share it, getting mad at other people who are sharing their gifts and that's what I felt like was happening. You know, in the wider landscape of things Bikini Kill was having a lot of buckets of water thrown on our fire because there were a lot of men who were threatened. And there were a lot of women who were threatened. And so there was a lot of kind of negativity around our band where it was just like “you guys are too feminist or bad feminist, wrong kind of feminist” like, whatever. So anyways, these people come to town, they're mad, because we're not being welcoming. They're taking pictures of us, they're staring at us. They're saying, you know, we're assholes, but at the same time worshiping us, and it just feels completely untenable. And I kind of was like, My days are numbered here. You know, I just started feeling like, I don't know how long I can do this. And so I was like, Well, what do I do? When I feel really frustrated, I make some kind of art. So I decided to make this film with this camera that I think my dad who I'm barely in touch with, like he had given this to me as a peace offering or whatever. And I was thinking, How do I document Olympia before it gets destroyed? Because it felt like it was getting destroyed by other people creating a narrative about it, that wasn't true. And I knew I didn't want to try to create my own narrative about it that wasn't true as well. Like who am I? And so I thought, I'm gonna go to people, some people who I knew well, and some people who I barely knew, and just anybody who I could get on camera, and I'm gonna give them a basic outline of a story, and I'm gonna ask them to lie. And to pretend this thing exists, that doesn't exist. And I thought, one of the most interesting ways that I could represent Olympia at that moment in time was to have people lie, because it would end up being a product that's a false documentary about something that doesn't exist, which was this gang called Stupid Punks. I didn't define what it was like I didn't I wasn't like, they do crime or, you know, they put on swing dance parties. Like I didn't say what they were, I just would tell each participant before I turn on the camera, you're in this gang called Stupid Punks. And you need to tell me what your name is and what your function in this gang is. And, and part of the reason too, was like the cops in Olympia were like saying there were all these gangs. And they were like, out to get all these gangs, which was just like a racist ploy to fuck with black people. And I was like, That's really weird. Because there's so many white punks downtown. Where aren’t we getting called gangs? Like, why aren't we getting representatives? Because we clearly did travel in packs, you know…

‍

Hayes Waring

All the signs. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

All the signs. So that was a part of the name and then I just asked people like, Well, what do you do in this? What do you do in Stupid Punks? What's your function in Stupid Punks? And I turned on the camera. And then I also felt like it would show people's personalities more to hear what they lied about, then, I feel like if you ask people to tell the truth about themselves…

‍

Hayes Waring

It's a lie. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

It's a lie. So I was like, what if I just ask people to lie?

‍

Hayes Waring  2:42:58

That's the truth.

‍

Kathleen Hanna  2:43:00

I just felt like I would learn more about my subjects or about the subjects of the film, and the audience would learn more about them, even though the audience was literally me and Tim, like..

‍

Hayes Waring  2:43:09

It's a brilliant, brilliant setup.

‍

Kathleen Hanna  2:43:11

I think it's a good idea. I mean, it's not altogether successful as a film, but I just shot people talking about like, a lot of people who worked at the theater. You know, and everybody knows what happened at the theater, the scams that were going on, and what have you.

‍

Hayes Waring  2:43:30

We’re talking about the State Theater?

‍

Kathleen Hanna  2:43:31

Yeah, the dollar movie theater, where everybody went to see Lion King 3000 times because it had air conditioning. But it was just like, it was really fun. Like Bill was in it. You know? Rachel Carns is in it. Like there's a bunch of Olympia musicians in it. Sam, from Love as Laughter is in it. 

‍

Hayes Waring

Sam Jayne 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

Yeah, Sam Jayne. Mikey was actually kind of the star. 

‍

Hayes Waring

As he should be. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

As he should be. I filmed him first. We were still really close. Like, you know, this is like, I guess 10 years after we met, and he was the first person I filmed and then he filmed me. And then I just filmed people talking about their place in the gang. And so it's like this little time capsule of what Olympia was like that year, you know, some of the people who were doing things, Sue Fox. Yeah, it was fun. And then we put it together. And then at the beginning, there's a fanzine. And it's just pictures of the fanzine, and the fanzine is just words and it says stuff. Some of them are true, and some of them are not. Like it said “K Records pays their musicians fairly,” I think was one. Um, you can decide if that's true or not. Um, it said something like, “Vern Rumsey is a ballroom dancer,” something like that, like, you know what I mean, it was just like these things about people in the town that were either fake or real or like, whatever. And then it started. And then at the end, we did all the credits, writing on our stomachs. Because that was a Bikini Kill thing, supposedly, even though it was a punk thing that happened long before us that we copied. But it was like to write Slut on your stomach. And then everybody started doing it in like every magazine and stuff, they would have like fashion models riding like guitar rock on their stomachs. So that was, it was just a way to like, make something kind of funny. And at the end, it becomes like an after school special, where it's like Tim Green is like, walking on the railroad tracks over by the Red House. And he's got his shirt off, and he's really skinny and like the lights coming. And he's like, I mean, I guess it's just the tale of a town and kids that went wrong. You know what I mean, like “Aren’t we all Stupid Punks at heart?”

‍

Hayes Waring  2:46:16

That's very beautiful.

‍

Kathleen Hanna  2:46:20

Yeah, sorry, that was so long-winded. But it was like, it's actually was like this really satisfying project to me. And I think really only me and Tim ever watched it. I mean, eventually Tobi saw it. We never get?] anywhere. We never, it was just for us, like because we were going crazy. So it was like Mikey saw it, you know?

‍

Hayes Waring  2:46:37

No, these are the things that I think are the most telling about Olympia. And the way things work is like, there's so many of these projects that are so pivotal, at least for the people that live here, you know, and those are the, you know, the things that move us on to the next thing and, you know, like really, you know, pull it together, you know, like those were the ideas’ start, you know? 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

Yeah. 

‍

Hayes Waring

I think there are a couple things I want to talk about. But we've talked about a lot. Kathi didn't really talk about the end of Bikini Kill.

‍

Kathleen Hanna  2:47:14

Why not? That's such a fun topic. Actually you know, the end of Bikini Kill was two days ago, it was Groundhog's Day. I don’t remember what year it was, but yeah, the official email of like, I don't want to do this anymore was on Groundhog's Day. But we never talk about it. Like, it wouldn’t happen.

‍

Hayes Waring  2:47:36

Well, happy anniversary. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna 

Thank you. 

‍

Hayes Waring

Yeah, so she didn't really talk about that. And, you know, I want to talk more about, you know, Pawnee, and Long Hair Dave and Olympia AIDS Prevention project and that show, and maybe also any other shows that you really remember, maybe like the Giant Henry show at the North Shore Surf Club where you guys played, if you have a memory of that? I think that's pretty pivotal.

‍

Kathleen Hanna  2:48:09

Oh! I don't remember that at all. What was it?

‍

Hayes Waring  2:48:11

Well, just Tobi talks about it being like, you know, how do you say, a metaphor for you know, how you, you were viewed in Olympia, where it was like, Oh, we are not on the flyer. And we just had to have the other band John Henry, let us use their gear, and we just did it, you know.

‍

Kathleen Hanna  2:48:35

But that was the L7 show. Is that the same thing? Or was it a different time? 

‍

Hayes Waring

That's it. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

Yeah, I was drunk. That's why that happened. I almost got kicked out of the band for that. So I'm really happy she remembers that in a better, more positive light these days. But at the time, you were pissed at me. Because I got up and made a fool of myself and was like, I want to play this show. Like I was- so I don't drink anymore, by the way. But like, yeah, I was just being a dick. Like, I don't feel like it was like punk rock history. I feel like it was actually a blight in my career. You know what I mean, because like, they, we didn't agree upon it. You know what I mean? Like, I didn't ask them. I told them, I got up on stage and took the mic and started just making it happen. It was one of those times where being a mover and shaker is abusive and gross. And, you know, yeah, it was good that I got them up on stage and we did something in front of people. But it was not okay, like my behavior that night was absolutely abhorrent and embarrassing. But the thing about that and Bikini Kill I guess that I wanted to say because we were just talking about Stupid Punks, like Stupid Punks was the beginning of the end of Bikini Kill. Like all that stuff I was talking about, about the way people came to consume culture. A lot of that stuff made Olympia untenable for me as a place to live. Like an example. You know, I went to 7-11 when I was very depressed, partially because my band was not practicing, which is another reason why we broke up. It was just everyone was like not wanting to practice, I just felt like things weren't moving. And I was like working on a solo record, because I was just like, I just have to make something all the time, and they weren't moving fast enough. And, you know, and that was one of their, not all three of them- but I think that was problems some people in the band had with me was that, I was like, you know, over productive, sometimes, like an obsessive and like, couldn't stop. And so when they needed a break, I was like, No, we have to keep going, you know what I mean? Like. And people would have to put the brakes on me. And so I would just start working on something else. So I was working on a solo record…

‍

Hayes Waring

Which record is that? 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

It's called Julie Ruin. I was working, so I got I finally got a reel to reel.

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Hayes Waring  2:51:09

You're the guy now,

‍

Kathleen Hanna  2:51:10

I was that guy. I got that boy, I got a four track and I started making a four track cassette player. And I remember that was actually my one of my big Olympia moments, was I got a four track Tascam cassette player for $400, I saved up my Bikini Kill money. I bought it, totally changed my songwriting forever. First thing I recorded was a cover of Randy Travis’ “Promises”. Again, I had quit drinking. So that song is very apt. It was not very good as a cover. But I learned a lot recording it. And then I started recording practices on it at our practice space up on Foote Street. And yeah, and it just, it gave me so much more. It just taught me a lot as a singer about what I was doing right, what I was doing wrong, because I could actually listen back. Like I'd used practice tapes before and sung along in my truck or my car or whatever. But I hadn't had, besides doing the thing where you have one tape player, and then another tape player and you like bounce it back and forth, like physically in the room, which I would do occasionally. Now I had the ability to have the instrumentals that they were writing on, you know, a track or two tracks and then goof around with my vocals before going to practice. So it was a new way of songwriting. And it was definitely reflected in our last record, Reject All American, that I had that four track because I was, I started writing differently and singing differently. Because I was able to hear what I was doing before I did it. And I never had that luxury before. So I moved on to a 8 track because my ideas were too big for four tracks…

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Hayes Waring  2:52:50

What type of 8 track was that? I love 8 tracks.

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Kathleen Hanna  2:52:52

It was a Tascam flatbed. So it's actually- the reel to reel is in the mixing board in a flatbed.

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Hayes Waring  2:53:03

Yes, yes. Yes. And it's like a quarter-inch reel?.

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Kathleen Hanna

Yeah.

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Hayes Waring

Yeah. Love those. 

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Kathleen Hanna  2:53:10

I used that for the first Le Tigre record too. I still have it. 

‍

Hayes Waring

Oh, wow. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

I kept trying to give it to people, but they kept giving it back.

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Hayes Waring  2:53:18

It’s very big, isn't it? 

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Kathleen Hanna  2:53:23

It’s really big. it was actually, it was in an archive for a while. And then they're like, “We don't know what to do with this” 

‍

Hayes Waring

It’s too big. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

Like, “we don't have room.” But so anyways, I was working on that. And I remember going to 7-11 or whatever to buy cigarettes, because I was stuck on a song. And I was, I was depressed. And I was working my way out of my depression with this record. And so I was smoking because that's what I do when I get depressed. And I went to the store and I didn't have ID. I was like 27, and they wouldn't sell me cigarettes, and like, I'm 27! 

‍

Hayes Waring  2:54:05

And the law said at the time that you were, like you only had to look 26 or whatever.

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Kathleen Hanna  2:54:09

I was like, I felt like I looked like I was 95. From where, where things were at that moment in my life. I was like, I look like I'm 95 years old. I'm like geriatric in this town. Like you got to give me cigarettes. So there was a young woman there who was involved in like Riot Grrrl - Olympia, which I wasn't even involved in anymore. Recently moved to Olympia, I think, I don't remember. She may have lived there forever and I just didn't know. I asked her, did she have ID on her and would she buy me cigarettes, and she bought me cigarettes. And then a few months later, she gave me a fanzine. It was like, whew! It was just all this stuff about how sad I looked. And then she started talking about what, how she knew I was feeling inside and it was just really invasive and like, what are you talking about, man, like, the only thing I said to you is, do you have ID, will you buy me cigarettes. Like that was our whole interaction. And then she wrote a whole essay about this non-interaction. So, and that was part of the reason I was depressed was because all this stuff I said about people coming and consuming Olympia without giving back is really a sad thing to watch. It felt like this town that once like, told me, I could do anything, you can put a show on in the barn. You know, it was people constantly coming up, like, “Hey, want to do this?” You know, when I did eventually quit drinking, there's a whole scene of people who didn't drink who invited me to their barbecues, and their fucking volleyball games. And, you know, I was like, this is awesome. You know, I never knew where- I grew up around people who drank I always hung out with people who drank, I always drank. And, you know, I may have at one point made fun of like, the K straight-edge people like, Oh, they're goody two shoes, or whatever. And I totally benefited from the fact that there were kids who abstained, you know, like, they were there for me and I still, to this day, if I think about taking a drink, I remember that. I remember, “but wait, that exists.” Like, kids that you can play Four-square with when you're an adult. Like, that was awesome. You know, that kind of scene that's like, isn't based around drugs and alcohol, like that that existed for me, and I could plug myself into that. And it just started feeling like, you know, all of that positive stuff, I just couldn't find it anymore. All I was getting was like, weird mean fanzines about myself and criticism and like some girl in a Safeway, it was like, buying tampons and ice cream on my period. And she came up to me and said, “You're so conceited. You're ruining the punk scene. You think you're so fucking great.” I'd never seen this girl before in my life. Like I had no fucking clue who the fuck she was. Apparently, she thought she was punk and she was putting me in my place. But I was like, I’m fucking having cramps man, like, I’m at my Safeway by my apartment. Like really? Like, give me a fucking break. I'm not Demi Moore. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not like. That's the thing, is like, if you're in Olympia and you're at all famous, you are, you know, Zendaya. Like, you are like some huge star. But in real life, like nobody gave a shit about me, like, you know what I mean? Like, I could have moved to Orange County, and tried to be in that punk scene; nobody would knew who I was, like it was totally weird. It just felt like I was under a microscope constantly. And I was watching some people in the local Riot Grrrl be just awful. And I felt like I couldn't help was a part. I gotta blame Allison too. I was a part of creating like a Frankenstein monster that was like, out of control. There was like a white woman who was in Riot Grrrl, and she was accusing people of color of being racist to her. And it was a mental illness mixed with identity politics in a really, really bad way. And I was seeing younger girls fall under her spell because she was very charismatic. And I was like, I should stop this, but I want to make my record instead. It was constantly that thing of like, oh, I should step in and do something. But I was like, I'm not the leader. I don't want to step in and do something like I want to make music like, this does make me really sad and awful. But I mean, Bikini Kill came about because we didn't feel like we belonged anywhere. And so we tried to create a scene we belonged in and Riot Grrrl kind of, you know, became that scene. But it also came from a place that, you know, I helped create it. And then I got hate mail from the address, the PO box that I set up in DC for Riot Grrrl with my own money. That PO box sent me hate mail, like, calling me Hitler. Like, I was like, getting hate mail, basically from myself is what it felt like, and I was like, this is, the call’s coming from inside the house. You know, I was just like this, it was, and that's what it felt like in Olympia. It felt like me and my friends have done a lot of really cool things. And instead of you guys being thankful, all you do is fucking criticize us and say how sucky and cliquey we are and we're not letting you in. But we're constantly like, “Hey, who wants to be a part of this?” And you don't raise your hand. And then you write a flyer about us being dicks. Fuck you, fuck you, and fuck you. And I just started to feel like I just couldn't live there anymore. And I was being stalked by a guy from Hard Bodies Gym. I lived at The Rey.

‍

Hayes Waring  2:59:33

right. Did you live at The Rey or near The Rey?

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Kathleen Hanna  2:59:37

Well, I lived actually at The Rey for a bunch of times I lived at Angeles, Rey, Martin.

‍

Hayes Waring  2:59:45

Sororities. Love it. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna  2:59:47

Yeah. I mean Angeles, I never had my own bathroom. That was terrible. But I lived in this apartment building next to The Rey that I called the country western apartment building because it had swinging doors that didn't lock, and that was by McCoy's tavern parking lot just like The Rey.It was like McCoy's, and then next to it was this place called Hard Bodies gym. And there was a guy who worked there who was stalking me. And he thought I was a prostitute and needed to be cleansed from the neighborhood. Yeah, it's a long story. It'll be in my book, don't worry. But it's an important thing to say about Olympia history, that this guy, I found out later, had beaten his wife and had been, the police came to get him and he ran in the pond behind his house with a straw and tried to hide. But the police saw the straw and he was taken in. And he then didn't have a place to live because she had a restraining order Domestic Violence Protection Order, DVPO, against him. And so he moved into his place of business where he was like the manager, which was the Hard Bodies gym… He lived across the street from me. And because I couldn't go to coffee shops where punks hung out because I would get people bringing fanzines to me or telling me I was ruining the scene for everyone. I would go to this weird kind of like, I don't know, it was like these bros ran this coffee shop called Kundalini or something. I don't know what it was. 

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Hayes Waring  3:01:27

Oh yeah, that was it. Yeah, that's right. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna  3:01:31

Friends. But nobody cool went there. So I went there. Because they never, nobody ever bothered me. You know, like, I just sat there and worked. Nobody ever bothered me. And then one day, the guys who worked there who never talked to me, were like, “Hey, we have to tell you something.” And I was like, what? And they're like, “this guy who works at Hard Bodies gym. He's been coming in, saying all this weird shit about you.” 

‍

Hayes Waring

No, what? 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

And like, Okay, this dude is not even, he doesn't know I'm in Bikini Kill. Like, I already had stalkers, because of Bikini Kill. And guys writing me hate mail because of Bikini Kill. This was just some random dude. And this is not the first time it happened. But it was like, random dude comes in and says, “I keep seeing this girl.” And I used to take my cat out in front of the building so he could just like hang out in the grass, fake grass, whatever, the weeds there. And the guy would see me just hanging out and see me going back and forth because I was recording a record. So I was like, that would be my break. Then I'd walk over to the coffee shop. I'd work on lyrics over there. And then I'd go home, then I'd go back to the coffee shop to get more coffee. Because what is it about Olympia that we don't know how to make our own fucking coffee?

‍

Hayes Waring  3:02:45

It comes out a lot. Kathi said that the biggest thing about moving to DC was that you couldn't get coffee there. And then that was like, what? This isn't gonna last.

‍

Kathleen Hanna  3:02:55

Oh, yeah. Well, the other thing was, I didn't know you could take a shower. Like, every apartment I lived in, none of them ever had showers. There was always baths and then as an adult or an older adult, I figured out that I could have just put a spray hose on it.

‍

Hayes Waring  3:03:10

Oh, dang, that's so brilliant. I've never thought of that.

‍

Kathleen Hanna  3:03:14

So I hadn't taken a shower. You know? Like, I didn't take a shower for 11 years. No, I did. But you know, rarely. Anyways, this dude was like, “That girl has no job” who, the biggest heroin dealer in town lived right underneath me. Which is why I could record my record because he would never fucking complain. And Cindy Wolfe lived next to me. And then like, this kid, Kai and a bunch of other kids, Devin and Steph lived across the hall from the heroin dealer. Nuff said. So none of them, there's only four apartments, none of them would ever complain. So I could make my whole record in my apartment without anybody saying anything. So that was kind of the brilliance of the situation. But there was a lot of people coming and going out of that building, because there was a heroin dealer who lived there. So this guy said to these dudes, “This girl is always walking back and forth at the parking lot. And she seems like she doesn't have a real job. And there's always men coming in and out of her building. She's a prostitute. This is a good neighborhood, we have to protect the neighborhood from prostitutes, right?” And then he started saying a bunch of creepy stuff that they wouldn't even repeat to me and I was like, Oh my God, how did I not notice this guy's watching me because he's clearly watching me right, from Hard Bodies. And I think they had mirrored windows. So that's probably why I couldn't see that he was, so I was like, How do I get to my apartment without him seeing me? It was impossible. It's like whatever. And then one night when I was recording, like really late at night, I went to my window, and they have bay windows in there. And I was writing and I felt like I was being watched and I looked at the building across the street, Hard Bodies, and there was a fucking ladder next to the building. And dude was laying on his stomach with fucking binoculars, looking into my apartment, and I was like, I'm gonna get killed, I'm gonna get killed. So, I ended up- I loved that apartment. I was so creative in that apartment. It was the place that was making me kind of realize, you know that Olympia was over for me, but it was also protecting me from, it was allowing me to be creative on my own, to start being a songwriter by myself. I was making the instrumental parts of the music too. I was recording as I wrote the songs, which is something I had never done. Bikini Kill never had the luxury or the finances to do that. But to me, more than any of the interpersonal dynamics of Bikini Kill, that was the end of Bikini Kill for me, because then I had to, like, you know, move in the middle of the night to some other apartment in The Martin, this tiny apartment that a friend used to live in. And I was just like, I can't anymore, I just I can't, you know, like, and I mention that story for the Olympia archive, because this is the experience that women musicians, or women artists, or any women have. This is not remarkable that that guy was doing that and that I went to my landlord and said, hey, can you put real doors that lock on the front door, because I was like, That guy is just going to come in. And the whole time I was recording the record, I kept having to turn around and take my headphones off. I couldn't have like this relaxed time making this thing that was so special and important to me, and was helping me get my identity back from being the FemiNazi bitch in Bikini Kill, which was kind of the cartoon idea that I had become, you know, in the limited circles of punk rock…

‍

Hayes Waring

Right. To your detractors. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

Yeah. And so that's why I want to mention it in this thing. 

‍

Hayes Waring

No

‍

Kathleen Hanna

I want it on record. I want if a woman's listening, or reading or whatever, like, I just want it on record that that's the kind of shit women have to deal with. And that's when people ask me, you know, why aren't there more women in punk rock? Or why aren't there more women in music? Because of that guy! You know what I mean? Like, he almost made me stop recording my fucking record. So I was terrified.

‍

Hayes Waring  3:07:21

Yeah, making space is so important. And if you don't feel comfortable in that space, you're not gonna do anything.

‍

Kathleen Hanna  3:07:27

Yeah! And I mean, I kept going, I got a Radio Shack alarm on my thing. And, you know, just also class stuff. Like my landlord wouldn't put a fucking lock on the door. I went out somewhere, went to Olympia, I went there to see if they have a locking door. Like, that's how much the experience affected me. And it really fucked me up, you know, and I was really convinced that that guy was, was at some point going to do something pretty bad. And I definitely did not feel safe and started sleeping on people's couches and yeah, so after that, I just, I moved to this other little apartment, and I actually, you know, it's really funny. This is to me the end of Bikini Kill. This is where KGHO comes in. KGHO, you know that station? 

‍

Hayes Waring

Yes. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna

The Olympia station?

‍

Hayes Waring

KGY?

‍

Kathleen Hanna

No, there was a station called KGHO, and it was up on the hill. And it played Monster Mash a lot.

‍

Hayes Waring  3:08:32

Oh, that's a great song. 

‍

Kathleen Hanna  3:08:36

This radio station sometimes. I was convinced that I was the only person listening to it. Sometimes. I thought that I was making it up in my head. Like, I was like, I don't think this station exists. I think I'm just driving around in my station wagon, listening to my own brain. Because whoever was running KGHO, like they would play a lot of like novelty songs like, songs about being a housewife. Like the weirdest fucking shit from the 50s and 60s They did a show, they did two days, a whole weekend. Elvis versus the Beatles. One Elvis song, one Beatles song. They also did this thing called Secret Sound where they would like put a bunch of glass in a bag and then shake it and then whoever called in to get the secret sound with like…

‍

Hayes Waring

Oh my god. 

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Kathleen Hanna

…would get like a refrigerator magnet. And if I wanted to have a radio show, me and my husband were gonna have a radio show just so we could do Secret Sound. We would listen to it and we'd be like, Okay, that was nails in a jar. No it wasn't. That was thumb tacks in a bag. Like, it was so fucking fun. And like people wouldn't get it for like a week, you know? And then finally somebody would be like, that was paper clips in a… like, you know what I mean? And you'd be like, O-o-oh! But so I obsessively towards the end of my tenure in Olympia, I was listening to this and, again, I went back to my home, which was independent radio. And I was listening to this wild ass, you know, and this shit only happens in Olympia. I'm sure there's other towns where there's crazy stuff, but it was so, it so kept me alive. And so after the stalker guy, and my band wasn't really practicing, and we weren't really getting along. And Kathi wanted to move to DC to be with her boyfriend. And I just wanted to get out of Olympia, because of all these reasons that I mentioned. And so I got- on my cassette player, boom box, whatever. I just got a bunch of cassettes. And I just started taping KGHO, and I still have 20 tapes of like, the last week that I lived in Olympia, every KGHO show. So that I could go back to that place. And I could go back to Olympia whenever I want by listening to this station that just literally played Monster Mash, like every seventh song. It was so weird! It was, I couldn't even believe it was happening. Like, I had to tape it so that I could be like, that happened. You know what I mean… there was actually a radio station in Olympia. That's that, that played these songs. This is what it was. And then yeah, I mean, me and Kathi just got a U haul and left. Like it was just over. 

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Hayes Waring

That was ’98? 

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Kathleen Hanna

Yeah, I was a karaoke host. And I went to the karaoke place. And for my last night at work, and I sang, the last time I sang was, “I Will Always Love You”, by Dolly Parton, and then I said, Fuck all you all and I mean, all you all. I dropped the mic. And I left. And yeah, I flipped Olympia off in the rearview mirror. And, you know, now I have a better relationship with Olympia. But um, yeah. And then people sent me fanzines about how, you know, I abandoned them and you know, I married Ad Rock, and I was a sell out and I was driving a Hummer and throwing cigarettes on babies. I was just like, we can't please everyone. And I moved to New York and nobody cared about me. And it was the best thing I ever did. People were like, “Bikini what?” Like, nobody cared. I was like, oh my god, I was so famous.

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Hayes Waring  3:12:36

Well Kathleen, I feel like that's a beautiful place for us to end our little talk of Olympia music history. This has been Kathleen Hanna and Hayes Waring for the Olympia Music History Project. Thank you so much, Kathleen.

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Kathleen Hanna  3:12:53

Well, thank you so much for allowing me to share this stuff. Olympia is like so fucking important to me. And I'm just really honored to be a part of its history like it's… I don't know, I still have dreams about The Martin.

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Hayes Waring  3:13:08

Okay, I'm gonna end the recording 

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Hayes Waring

Bye.

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Hayes Waring

Thank you so much. All right. 

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