Ali Baker: Hi, Tobi. Thank you so much for agreeing to be interviewed. At this time. Today is January 30 2023 and I just want to say hello to you. I'm interviewing you, Tobi Vail. Thanks for your time and your contribution to not just the Olympia music scene, but to the entire world for the past 40 years, for real.

Tobi Vail: Almost 40 years, it's true. Thank you. I'm glad to be a part of the project.

Ali Baker: Awesome. So I'll just start out by asking, where are you from and how did you find your way to Olympia Washington?

Tobi Vail:  I was born in Auburn, which is a suburb of Seattle, kind of near SeaTac. And then my parents and I lived here [in Olympia] a little bit in the early 70s. And then we lived in Naselle, Washington, which is near Astoria and I kind of think of that as where I'm from because that's when I was little, and then moved back to Olympia when I was about 10. And for the most part, I've lived here ever since then, that was like 1979. So basically from Olympia.

Ali Baker: What inspired you to start playing music?

Tobi Vail:  That's such a hard question because- well, I guess it’s not. Well, my dad's a musician, and my granddad was a musician. They're both drummers. And neither of them thought of it in terms of musician, they just more, you know, thought of it in terms of being drummers and playing in bands. So it was a pretty natural thing. And my family's very into music and stuff. But I didn't really start playing music until I saw that Go Gos in like 1982. I was 13. And right around that time, my middle school here in Olympia- it was Jefferson Middle School- had an elective where we could take guitar. You know how they teach basic music instruction, like usually with a recorder to teach you how to play music or something? It's not school band or anything. For some reason that year, we had guitar. And so they let you check out a guitar, and you’d learn how to read music. And, you know, I was really good at it, probably because I wanted to learn how to play guitar. But at the end of that three months or whatever, it was over. So [laughing] then you gotta give your guitar back. And there's nowhere to go with it. And then also, I was a little bit frustrated because it was like classical guitar. So it didn't sound like the Go Go's or anything. But meanwhile, my dad had a drum set at the house and it was too big for me. So, when I got a little taller, I was able to reach the pedals and hit everything, my arms got long enough to use his drumset, then I started playing that. And he also eventually got me a guitar right around then, an electric guitar, and I kind of wanted to be a guitar player. But I was a little bit better at drums than other people probably just because the drums were there. But yeah, I'm a drummer. And I also play guitar. So that was really young, probably... 12, 13, 14, 15.

Ali Baker: That's really cool that they offered guitar in school because, you know, it's like you pick band or orchestra, and you kind of just do one or the other and then within that you pick like flute or like... you know, cool with that, but-

Tobi Vail:  Yeah, I definitely wanted to play rock and roll and the guitar seemed closer to that, even though it was classical guitar. I think we learned like one Beatles song.

Ali Baker:  That's cool. So growing up in the Pacific Northwest, what were some of the first bands that you gravitated toward and, like, why punk? There were a lot of different kinds of music. So what drew you to the sounds of punk? Was it a visceral reaction?

Tobi Vail:  A couple of things. So, my parents were into punk and new wave, because they were really young and they're into music. And my dad was playing in a band here called Tapeworms that were kind of power pop new wave. I would say like Elvis Costello kind of music. And my mom was taking some classes at Evergreen and knew some local musicians. So she met somebody who was in this band called Millions of Bugs. And then we had a seven inch by a local band called West Side Lockers. And my dad bought like a Sub Pop five cassette compilation at Rainy Day Records when it was over on the west side. So we just were listening to that kind of music. And then when I got into high school, I think my mom took me to a protest, it was Rock against Reagan, October 1983. And they had a big flatbed truck and some local bands played and there were lot of punk rockers. They were my age, and they had skateboards. And I brought my skateboard downtown every time we came downtown, because, as I said, I used to live in the woods, in Naselle, and there was no place to skateboard. So coming downtown, where they had sidewalks and stuff from the west side-I lived in a kind of rural area. It was fun. And then I saw these kids with skateboards. And then we just started- me and my friends started coming, taking the bus downtown a lot more, to skateboard. And we just would look for those kids. And that was very fortunate, because that was the ‘83-‘84 school year. And before that, there wasn't really- from what I can tell, I mean, obviously I wasn't a part of it if it was around- but from what I could tell from talking to people, and from being around back then, is there really wasn't a music scene here that involved local kids until right around then. Like, there'd been a couple of shows at Evergreen. The Wipers had played downtown at a storefront in ‘82  1983. And I was still in eighth grade, and I didn't know anything about that. But we'd met some kids who had been to those shows who were a little bit older than us. And then I think that even before I went to any other shows after Rock against Reagan, there were shows in the alley by the Martin apartments. So in between the alley, and by the old Batdorf and Bronson that goes between the Olympia hotel and the Martin, some kids started putting on shows there. And I saw some bands play in there, and that's when I first saw Beat Happening. And then from meeting those people- and probably listening to KAOS, too- we found out that there was- oh, no, I know! So my friend's older brother was going to shows and we wanted to go see the Young Pioneers who we'd seen at Rock against Reagan- me and some of my friends from high school that were younger. And her older brother was like, Oh, we're gonna go see them this weekend. But he wouldn't give us a ride. So we took the bus. And then when we got there, we found out another band, The Wipers were playing- I think we might have known they were playing before. But anyway, so we went to see the Young Pioneers and the Wipers at Evergreen, and another band called Pell Mell played. And that was like, early ‘84. January, I think. And then after that, we kept hearing that they're going to open an all ages club in Olympia. And then that happened in February or March, and that was the fabulous Tropicana on fourth [311 E. 4th Ave]. So it's like right where the hotdog stand is now next to Jamie Lee, like where that building that used to be Jake's- actually Jake's is like two storefronts put together and an alley that used to be there- the alley - is not there anymore. So it's really hard to tell exactly where the Tropicana used to be, now. Then I just became one of the kids that went to shows like every single show, and I was only 14, but there was a bus and my parents were very excited about us going to see music and stuff. So that's how I got involved in punk. It was just what was happening here. Hardcore punk in the ‘80s had been around for a couple years. I think like ‘81-‘82 is when it got started. ‘83-‘84 is the year I'm talking about. And a lot of people pinpoint the end of that first wave as being right around when I got involved, but I think in the Pacific Northwest, it was kind of just starting for a lot of kids. And that might be true everywhere, in other cities too, I don’t know.

Ali Baker: Totally. And then there was like the DC-Olympia connection too. Did a lot of bands, like hardcore bands from that area come through and play at the Tropicana? And tell me more about the Tropicana, like why was it such a... I've read in interviews that the Tropicana was really important to you , or it seems like it was.  Can you tell me a little bit about that time, and just the scene, and like, paint a picture of that. Why it was really life changing for you?

Tobi Vail:  Yeah, I mean, like I said, I went to a protest and that's how I found out about the bands. And I think a lot of kids were very politicized by what was going on with the Reagan administration. And, in particular, that fall  the United States invaded Grenada. And there was a story in the news that President Reagan was going to reinstate the draft [Carter had reinstated conscription a few years prior during the Soviet Union invasion of Afghanistan]. And the United States was involved in Central America and Nicaragua and El Salvador, and that was in the news a lot. And so you know, growing up after Vietnam, and coming from a working class background, my family- the draft was a big issue and my mom was really concerned about it. And it was also during that kind of equal rights movement, women's liberation era. So we just assumed that the draft would be for girls too. And, you know, probably kids like us. There were a lot of people fueled by not wanting to go to war. And I think a lot of hardcore punk bands were- too - it was kind of a protest movement of kids, to some degree. And then it was also a reaction against the hippie movement, or whatever. Kids wanted their own thing that wasn't just the same as their parents. But it was a lot about skateboarding. We didn't really have bands from DC play there. DC bands famously didn't really tour back then. And it's really far away. But Black Flag played there and JFA. So a lot of bands from California, Arizona, West Coast, you know, all the skate bands from California. And we had some bands from the Midwest. Like… (I'm not thinking)… the Crucifucks and Die Kreuzen. But a lot of the bands that played there were from the northwest. Like Greg Sage played there and DOA from Vancouver, Canada. And then there were a lot of local bands- like bands from Tacoma, like Girl Trouble and Noxious Fumes, they were really good. And then locally, we had a lot of bands that nobody really remembers. But one of the really good bands I already mentioned was Young Pioneers. And the Wimps. They played rock against Reagan, too. And then Volume Three, there were kids. It was really cool to see teenagers, or very young people, on stage, creating their own culture. But there was a lack of balance between girls on stage and girls in the audience. There were definitely more girls in the audience than on stage. And it wasn't like girls were prohibited from being on stage, just the culture of girls playing rock and roll didn't really exist yet. Like the Go Go's were a big deal. And it was cool, though, because there were some like the Fastbacks from Seattle. And locally, there was a band called the Boremen that had Donna Dresch and some people from Tacoma in it. And then there was an all girl acapella band called Rain Shadow that included some kind of goth girls from Olympia High School. And Bridget Irish was in that band, and they were really, really funny and good. And there was [a queer / feminist] mixed gender band called Flowers for Funerals that were kind of like the B-52s a little bit, but like if they just had no ability to play music- like just they rented or they checked out instruments from Evergreen. Like percussion instruments, and, you know, just made a band that kind of had the singing vibes of the B-52s. They might’ve had a bass or something. I don't think they really had a guitar, but there was a bunch of people on stage and they kind of were little bit like proto-Riot Grrrl. They kind of sounded like, say, Bratmobile or something like that. And there's a tape of that band. Me and some of my friends were trying to start a band, but we really didn't get it together until a little bit later.

Ali Baker:You said your first band was called Doris, what was that band like?

Tobi Vail:  Doris was an all girl four piece band from Capitol High School. Actually, our singer was a little bit older. And that was- I mean, the idea... we probably started when we were like 14 or 15, But we didn't actually start playing shows until we were seniors. Because it took us a long time to be confident and get the right mix of people and kind of learn how to do a band. Our singer’s named Tam [Tamra Ohrmund], and she did a fanzine called Someone Said. She's from Anchorage, Alaska and she worked at the Smithfield Cafe. A lot of kids, our first jobs were like- I mean, I worked at McDonald's, but then I got hired at the Smithfield Cafe, which was a queer owned Cafe on Fourth Avenue and where the Lemongrass is now. So Doris, I don't know... like, it's kind of hard to describe our music. We did record, but it was at the very end of our band, and I didn't really like how it turned out, and neither did the singer, and then nothing happened with it. But I do have a copy of it. There's a lot of chorus on the guitar, it kind of sounds New Wave in a way, but kind of like goth, maybe a little bit. But we thought we were a skate band. [laughing] So I don't know. It's really hard to categorize. But that experience was cool. Like I know, we played out at Evergreen with Dead Moon the first time that they came to Olympia and Danger Mouse and a band called My Name and we played the Smithfield. We went on a little mini tour with Beat Happening. Everyone was really supportive of us. There was another all girl band from Olympia High School at the same time, called Further Still. And people tried to like make us- it was like the Beatles versus a Rolling Stones kind of- like Doris versus Further Still, and I was like, “whatever,” [laughing] like, it's fine.

Ali Baker:Did you play the drums in that band?

Tobi Vail:  I did, and yeah, I hit the drums very hard. They would always fall over, and there was no bass player. [laughing]

Ali Baker: Okay. Two guitars, a drummer and a singer?

Tobi Vail:  Yeah, we played in Tacoma at the Community World Theater, too. We played in Seattle. Like we actually- you know, we played in Eugene and Corvallis. We were a real band and we’d practice a lot. But I think the only documentation of it is that Greg [Greg Anderson] - What's his last name? I can't remember right now he was in a band called False Liberty. And then he started that band Sunn O))). He did the scene report for Maximum Rock'n'Roll, and he mentioned Doris. That was probably the only documentation we did… Oh, we got interviewed for a fanzine. So that was cool. I can't remember the name of the fanzine [Nothing fanzine?], but I do have the interview somewhere.

Ali Baker:  So that was your first real formal band where you did some stuff.

Tobi Vail:  Yeah. And we met a lot of people. That's how I met Billy [Billy Karren], who I played with in Go Team and Bikini Kill. That's how I met Billy.

Ali Baker:  Speaking of Billy, and Calvin, and going back a little bit- well, actually, forward- Doris happened. And then did you form the Go Team with Calvin Johnson after that, and how did that process happen? Was it just because you all were in the same- like, you guys knew each other from bands before, going to shows? How did that happen?

Tobi Vail:  I'm not sure which actually came first, but the Go Team- I remember them as being like- Beat Happening was kind of taking a break. Then Calvin started doing this Go Team recording project kind of thing, and it was his deal. And then at some point, he asked me if I wanted to do some Go Team stuff. And I was very much like, “Yeah, but it has to be equal, where it's both of our band,” you know. So then we both- it became both of our band. And then we put a bunch of tapes out and a comp, where- we put out two tapes and a compilation. And we were on several compilations- like one in Germany, and you know, stuff like that through K records, knowing people internationally. And then we started going on tour in 1989. And then that year, we did two US tour that we put out nine seven inches. And then we broke up. But yeah, Billy was in the touring lineup. And he plays on a couple seven inches, but it was a collaborative project.

Ali Baker: Yeah, yeah. It seemed- you had Billy Karren and then I saw Kurt Cobain came in and even played on it, and like, you know?

Tobi Vail:  Yeah, people liked us. It was interesting, like the Melvins had us open for them in 1989 on my 20th birthday, at Reko Muse gallery and I just ever being so excited that I was in a band that the Melvins would ask to have open for them, because I grew up watching them at the Tropicana and following them all around the Northwest, so that was cool.

Ali Baker: It's really great. So, going back a little bit. Can you tell me more about what the Olympia music scene looked like in the 1980s, pre-Bikini Kill, pre girl revolution. Was there anything that  made you want to play music in that scene? Or made you want to kind of change things up?

Tobi Vail: Hard to put yourself back in the mindset. So it was a very supportive scene, people supporting each other. But it was a bunch of teenagers and very young people. So there was drama, there was competitiveness. And, you know, as I started to get older, it became clear to me too, that there was sexism within not just the world, but also the music scene. So from the experience of playing in Doris and stuff, it kind of seemed like we needed to really question that- like, why? Who's taken seriously, and who's not? Who has access to resources and information and who's encouraged and who is not encouraged? Those conversations were happening- partially around the culture of Olympia punk in particular, because Beat Happening were a very outspoken- I mean, maybe not even in words, but just in the way that they approached doing a band. It was all about getting- just sort of breaking down walls. Like, the way that they played music on stage without being trained musicians, but were able to make songs that were really good- was super inspiring to a lot of people. But I think especially maybe to girls who had not had the cultural training for being like “good musician” or whatever. Like, nobody- no girls my age - knew how to play guitar, just zero, right? Like, not even acoustic. I met Donna Dresch pretty early, like Tropicana era. And she started playing bass. And I was like, She's really cool. She, she skateboards, she plays bass, she has a fanzine. And she has a radio show, so I kind of just thought she was- I want to be like her, you know? I really looked up to her, like a big sister kind of person. Then, of course, we became friends, you get older, and the age difference is not as big. And I was also doing a radio show. Calvin… because I knew who he was because he was in Beat Happening and stuff. And I was asking him to tape me records that I heard him play on the radio, and he was like, “you know, you can get a radio show. You can go out there, and you can listen to every record that you want to hear. And you can even tape them.” And so he kind of pushed me in that direction. And in like 1985, I got a radio show. And I did that all throughout high school. And then I took a break, and then I came back and started doing it again. But on the radio, that gave us a voice, and it gave us an opportunity to really- we'd go there after school and look at all the records that came in, and we would try to figure out which bands had girls in them. We were like, “Oh, we want to play those,” you know. So we're having those conversations and it was like, “Well, do they have to be all girls ,or just the singer” or whatever. So we all just made up this term, “high female input,” which seems like a really antiquated term now, but we were like, “we play high female input bands.” That meant like, probably not just the bass player, you know, because in the hardcore punk era, it was very common to see a very pretty girl playing bass, which is traditionally a support role. Or it's viewed that way in rock and roll. And they often didn't sing, or have a microphone, or maybe have that much power within the band. But you know, it's still cool. Donna really kind of broke out of that mold because she was just so charismatic. She kind of blew everyone off the stage. You know, everyone in any band that she was in, she kind of just was like the focal point. Like at one point, she joined the Screaming Trees and she almost even blew those guys off the stage. And it’s not even like that, she just took it to the next level. She's a really great performer and an incredible musician. So her role was never passive at all. It's kind of like Kira [Kira Roessler] from Black Flag- I don't think that that was passive either, even though it probably wasn't her band, like she joined it after it already existed or whatever. But I don't know where I'm going with that. It was just, those conversations were happening. But anytime you have like a group of kids- because we really were kids- there's gonna be stuff that happens. There was sexual assault, there was date rape, and there was also sexism- like girls that had bad reputations, you know, and kind of double standards and body shaming and that kind of stuff. At the same time, there was encouragement, like, “oh, yeah, let's get a girl to play drums,” that kind of thing. And that felt a little bit tokenistic. So it was kind of just like, well, we need to change the whole culture, we really do. And how are we going to do that? So that came out of the 80s hardcore scene and the indie/K scene, too. Also, you know, because Calvin owned the label, and the K records scene was- it's interesting, because it's hard to generalize. Like, it wasn't sexist. At all. It was very inclusive of women. But at the same time, it didn't totally speak to the kind of anger that I felt. It was like you sang, kind of like quietly, and most of the bands aren't super screamy or raging. And there was kind of a traditional gender presentation, like a 50s kind of aesthetic of- almost like a performative, like butch femme kind of thing. But really, like, mostly cis, straight people doing those roles. So it felt just very strange. But it was interesting too, you know, it was cool. Like, it wasn't a bad thing at all for girls. But it wasn't explicitly the kind of feminism I was looking for. I think seeing Mecca Normal really actually changed everything, because they came here. And they played at GESCCO in 1986, on this tour called the Black Wedge Tour. That was an anarchist tour, and seeing Jean [Jean Smith] from Mecca Normal just explicitly singing about sexism, really- political songs- and being really bold. And then to K records’ credit, they immediately started working with Mecca Normal. That's evidence of how Jean Smith was totally challenging everything. And she was on K Records for several years- Mecca Normal were.

Ali Baker: Speaking of politics in music, I want to ask you what activated- we've already touched on this, but what activated your activism? Like, how did the political climate during the 80s affect you and your peers? And was this kind of a driving force behind a lot of the music, or some of yours? Did feelings of what was going on directly translate to the music scene? Could you feel it?

Tobi Vail: Well, a lot of people in the music scene were talking about the draft, and they organized an action called Register in Protest. And so I think the first Monday of every month or something, a bunch of punk rockers would like meet up and then like, go to the post office and register for the draft under fake names, the idea being that if everyone registered for the draft every Monday, then it would turn into bureaucratic chaos, and no one would actually be registered for the draft. I don't know, that kind of stuff. And then I think that a lot of the kids were already politicized. I mean, for one thing, because we were questioning authority, getting into anarchism and feminism and being anti racist, for the most part- trying to, anyways- and we looked weird... like, just the way that every other punk rockers dressed was like a threat to the status quo. So people would get attacked- like physically attacked. And part of it which maybe is less known, is that those kids in hardcore punk and like, in the early days of punk- part of why it was so threatening is because it was not gender conforming. So you would see like, a girl with a shaved head, and no makeup. And then, you know, a lot of times, if you looked like that, if you would get harassed, they would call you a slur for like, being a lesbian. Or they’d just call you a lesbian, which was seen as really negative at the time. And the same with guys. Like if they wore eyeliner or dyed their hair or, you know, wore tight jeans instead of whatever preppy people wore, they would get called “fag” and sometimes got beaten. And that actually happened to the singer of this band Immoral Roberts, he was beaten up. It's kind of a complicated story, but he actually died. And stuff like that happened. So one thing that I can remember is standing in front of the Tropicana one time and it was raining. And somebody in a pickup truck like drove by and threw a tire iron, and it went like this across my head, almost hit my eye, and it smashed the windows. And people would just drive by the Tropicana trying to hassle you. That was violent. Yeah, so Rick Lewis, [of Immoral Roberts] he was involved in something. I think what happened was a bunch of punk rockers went up to Seattle to Gorilla Gardens on New Year's Eve. And then there was a fight. Some kids jumped somebody, and then he came to their assistance, and then they beat him really bad. And he had a brain injury, and he was in a wheelchair, and then two years later, he died. So you know, that kind of intolerance for just being different- It just politicized everything. And then also, when we were kids, and we would hang out downtown, the businesses didn't want us like loitering, I guess. Like you couldn't stand in front of a business dressed like a punk rocker. You know, cops would come and tell you to leave or move on, or you couldn’t sit on the sidewalk or you know, that kind of stuff. Because it was kind of a street culture, you know. There were kids that were living in foster homes, there were homeless kids, runaways.... But there were also just kids like us, like skateboarders. You know what I mean... So, the Tropicana didn't get their lease renewed, and in the Olympian there were several articles complaining about punk rockers. And businesses seemed like they wanted to get it closed down. So when the Tropicana closed down, it was at the same time that up in Seattle, they banned all ages shows. So this whole culture that was super meaningful to us was legislated against, or squashed or seen as some kind of threat to the status quo. So there was an organization in Seattle called Youth Defense Council that was trying to organize kids and shows. And we started one down here called Youth for Direct Action. And one of the things that we organized- I remember meeting up at this alternative high school, public school called off-campus school that was like-what’s that street...I can’t picture the name of the street. It’s not Plum, it’s like you’re going up the hill and then-

Ali Baker:  Legion?

Tobi Vail:  No, it's the street that you take when you go to San Francisco Street Bakery from downtown.

Ali Baker:  Puget?

Tobi Vail:  Puget, right. Okay, so right at Puget and fourth, that building that's like an old Victorian house- That was Off-Campus School. So we had meetings up there. And then we were like, “well, what are we going to do about this anti loitering thing?” Like they don't let us hang out downtown with our friends, and we didn't have money to buy things. You know, we just wanted to be outside skateboarding and hanging out with our friends. So we organized this action where you go downtown, and all these punk rockers would go into a parking space and we would pay for parking. But it was a protest of the anti loitering ordinance or whatever. And maybe anti skateboarding too. I'm not really sure, I can't remember. But that was in the Olympian. And so you know, people just thought- I think the larger community thought it was too weird. And, you know, like we're questioning hard working people or just like traditional gender roles or, I don't know, the military, capitalism, all that kind of stuff. So it was just sort of inherently political. But not necessarily like explicitly about gender- that came later.

Ali Baker:  Yeah, totally. So after the Tropicana closed down, like, what did you guys do? Because you're still young, and obviously you love the scene, and it felt like a home to you. So, where do all those kids go who do feel they're outside of the status quo? And like, you know, LGBTQIA or just freaks and musicians and punk rockers- where do you go after the Tropicana and places like that close? Like, what did you do?

Tobi Vail:  Well, we continued to skateboard downtown. And there were just not really shows in Olympia anymore. So we'd have to get rides to Seattle for a little bit before they passed the all ages ordinance thing. But that's actually when the Community World Theater opened up in Tacoma around then. And so kids from Seattle and kids from Olympia would go to see shows in Tacoma a lot. And there was a house in Tacoma called 56th Street house that some punk rockers from Noxious Fumes and Girl Trouble lived at. And they had shows, like the Dicks played there. And I can't remember who else. So that was one thing that happened. But in 86, some students at Evergreen started a community center downtown called GESCCO. And so GESCCO wasn't really like the Tropicana, it was at Fifth and Cherry. It was supposed to be all ages. So it was like they want to do stuff for preschool age and stuff for  seniors, and all kinds of music, like banjo night, or country swing dancing or something. And I was just so annoyed. Like, I was like, Are you kidding me? This isn’t- we finally get this happening and you guys just want to make it really square? You know, because I was a teenager, and I wanted the Tropicana to come back or whatever. But then like, the people who are organizing were like, “well, you can come here after school, and you can make it anything you want.” Like, “here's a jukebox, you can put your music on the jukebox,” or whatever. So it was kind of like a teen center or something. A little bit after school, we’d hang out there. But, you know, that's when I got more serious about playing music and the radio show. I got the radio show after the Tropicana closed. And I really started practicing drums, like every day after school, and, you know, doing band practice and stuff like that. But at the same time, it was always really sad. When Reko Muse Gallery opened in, I would say, ‘88-89 maybe, it was started by Kathleen Hanna and Heidi Arbogast and Tammy Rae Carland, and they were art students at Evergreen. They didn't start it as a venue. They started as an art gallery. And part of the reason they started it as an art gallery is because the college had censored their art, or they felt not supported as feminist artists. And so they felt like they needed a new space. And I mean, that's their story to tell. But that's how I remember it being explained to me. So they kind of were also just like, “well, we just we had to have shows to pay rent, because no one cares about [visual] art.” And also they're not going to pay money for it. So, you know, that's, that's how that happened. And that's how I met Kathleen. So at that point, when Reko Muse started, that's when all the kids that grew up to be in Unwound and KARP, like that scene from Tumwater- those kids... I guess KARP was a little too young, but the kids like Justin Trosper and I can't remember his last name [Adam Shea]... Anyways, that's where I met them. It was all of a sudden there was another teenage community of hardcore kids that I didn't even know existed. And it turned out they had been listening to my radio show! [laughing]  Which was kind of cool. So yeah. Reko Muse was really cool. And it lasted for about a year or something. I'm not sure, maybe a little longer. And then after that, there was the North Shore Surf Club, and I guess that was in 1990. So Bikini Kill started 1990-1991 and that was a really exciting year. That's when the band that became Unwound started [Giant Henry]. It's when Dave Grohl joined Nirvana, and they were living here. And there were a lot of house shows. That's the first time I remember house shows being a really big deal here. There'd been maybe one or two before that, that I had known about. But it's kind of like the early 90s is where that started- like Lucky Seven house, Phoenix House, the Witch House, the Red House. All those houses were starting up. And those were places that became kind of like informal venues in Olympia.

Ali Baker: Absolutely. Was the Alexander Berkman Collective House [ABC House] around then, too?

Tobi Vail:  Yeah, the ABC House was around then. Bikini Kill played one of our first shows there, and we recorded our demo tape there.

Ali Baker:  That's so cool. Can you tell me a little bit more about the years leading up to Bikini Kill and the Revolution Girl Style Now? And why you felt the urgency to create a band like that?

Tobi Vail:  Yeah. So I guess coming into the 90s, I had been living in Eugene for a year. The Go Team had been broken up, I'd gone on a tour of the US a couple of times. And I wanted to start another all girl band- like Doris, I guess, but really do it for real. So I was kind of looking for people to play with. And then Kathi [Kathi Wilcox]and I met because we got hired on the same day at a job making sandwiches. And then I met Kathleen because she was working at Reko Muse. And I had gone on tour with Mecca Normal by then, and Kathleen was really liked Mecca Normal, too. And Kathleen was playing in a band called Amy Carter. And then she was in the band called Viva Knievel, and she was doing spoken word. And she was publishing her own zines that were kind of like chapbooks, and she was making art. And she's been really outspoken about rape and domestic violence. She was involved in Safe Place [the local domestic violence shelter].  And when she asked me to start a band with her, I was very excited. And so I had already been playing with someone who had suggested- a guy -who had suggested that we play with Kathi, but he didn't want Kathleen to be in it. And so I was like, Well, what if I just played with Kathleen and Kathi, and not that guy or whatever! [laughing] He had already been in a band with Kathleen, and they didn't get along, really. Or he didn't want to do that again. But I had started Jigsaw when I lived in Eugene. That was my fanzine, and I raised some issues that we're talking about in my fanzine- a little bit timidly at first, and then I got a little more traction. And I went back, I started going to school at Evergreen. I was taking classes here and there, but I couldn't really afford to be living on my own and going full time. I didn't want to live with my parents, so it was kind of hard to be in school full time. But that year, I was in school full time. And it was a full time program called Political Economy and Social Change. And Kathi and Kathleen- who are basically my age- they were getting ready to graduate. And I was not at all ready. At all. But I was learning a lot about feminist theory and activism and... the first Gulf War was starting. And we were all going to protest against the war, and talking about stuff. And the way I remember it, is that  Bikini Kill was a part of this protest, the anti war protest movement, and we were trying to stop the war. The music people were playing [at protests] was not from our generation, it was like, “give peace a chance” kind of songs, you know, from the 60s and hippie movement, and it just was not angry enough. And it didn't explicitly address a lot of the issues that women and girls were facing. So we started writing songs with that in mind, kind of. Then I think the early, early stuff was just really informed by that, but also within punk, nationally and internationally. There was a queer punk movement starting and it was kind of along side of, like, an AIDS activist movement. And so we were really inspired by both of those things- like, I had had family members die of AIDS (Rajeeve Gupta and Ron Snyder) . And a lot of punk artists were kind of in queer community. And, you know, no one was talking about AIDS. No one was talking about even being gay. So like that whole “silence equals consent” thing, that comes from Act Up, that was really informing our work to- well, we have to be really outspoken about everything because the state is not going to care whether we live or die, basically! [laughing] And abortion, even back then, seemed like it was under threat from the Supreme Court. I don't know, there was just a lot going on. But in Olympia, there was not really a culture of bands being politically outspoken. That was more what was happening in DC. And so when we ended up living there, we kind of put in a little bit more into the music than we did here. Like, you know, grunge was just starting here, and that wasn't really anything that was happening in DC. Grunge seems kind of like apathetic... not totally, Nirvana didn't seem like that. But like the other bands, like it was a little bit like- just parties, drugs, you know, 70s excess, kind of zoning out not actually being aware or trying to change things, but being a little bit more of a slacker or something.

Ali Baker: Yeah. Totally. And it's interesting because Nirvana - like everybody thinks they're the kings of slackers, because they like came out with this, like apathetic- I don't know, that's kind of weird.

Tobi Vail:   Yeah,I mean, Nirvana actually was very involved in protesting the war. They stopped traffic on the freeway one time when they were going to- with a bunch of protesters, they were going up to Seattle to play a show. They played anti-war protests- or a benefit on campus at Evergreen. And they weren't students, you know. And they were very much a part of our direct community at that time, when our band first started. We played shows together, and we were friends. And they were definitely talking about challenging gender stereotypes and learning about, you know, queer punk or those kind of ideas and because they were a part of our feminist community.

Ali Baker:  Absolutely. I love that. I really love that. Can you talk about zines a little bit and the cultural significance of them at that time- and what led you…? You said you started Jigsaw a little bit before. You wrote Bikini Kill in Eugene… Can you talk about zines?

Tobi Vail:  Yeah, so there were some queer punk zines around the time when I started Jigsaw. There was one called Hide. It was also kind of a cassette label. And it was from Toronto. And it was run by GB Jones, who was in a band called Fifth Column, they were putting out these cassette compilations that had a lot of women artists. And then down in San Francisco, there was a band called Comrades In Arms, CIA, and there was a HomoCore warehouse. And some of my friends had moved down there. Donna Dresch was living down there and Billy was living down there, Laura, who I'd met in Eugene was living down there. And so we all started making zines and sending them back and forth to each other. So I was super inspired by that whole scene, and Comrades In Arms was- the name, CIA, was the name of like- they said that they were the first “all fag and out” punk band ever, like that was who they were. And when I heard their tape, and started reading their zines, they started talking about Darby Crash from the Germs being gay, and they started talking about different punk rockers- how basically, they were sort of telling the story of the recent history of gay, queer punks that had been closeted. Or maybe they just weren't known to be queer. And they were interested in trying to document that- not just in the past, but also like, in their own work- like, make that a part of what was going on. And you know, you have to think- this is like the late 80s, early 90s. So a lot of people are dying of AIDS. So identity, and being outspoken [about being queer], became very political. And I think that was really a part of the zines, was sharing information. But also just creating a community network of support that was sort of challenging these... I don't know, just like- they existed in a way to challenge the lack of what we were seeing in the media... we had to build community because the government wasn't actually doing the right thing, where AIDS was concerned. The government seemed like a threat to the economy, but also just in general- like starting another war. That seems like a really bad idea. All of that stuff was being talked about, but not necessarily explicitly. Sometimes you would just review a record or whatever. I don't know where I'm going with this. But there were a lot of people [doing zines] Sister Nobody was Laura McDougall’s fanzine. Chainsaw was Donna’s fanzine, Jigsaw was mine, there was Hide cassette and tapes, there was- Mecca Normal had little pamphlets and anarchist literature that they would have. And then locally, there was an all girl band called Calamity Jane and we all were really into them. I interviewed them in Jigsaw. And then Kathleen was really outspoken, and she always seemed kind of like the leader of her bands. And so that was a big influence ...  it was like, if we didn't write about these bands, nobody would write about them. You know what I mean? It wasn't like there was a national magazine, just waiting to cover the Olympia music scene or the Eugene music scene. So, if you wanted to just document your own scene, you had to just do it. That was basically where the fanzine idea came from.

Ali Baker: That's really cool... I was born in 1983. So I was a little bit younger, but still, they call me a Reagan baby, which is really annoying. And I do know that, you know, the Reagan administration wouldn't even say the word AIDS. And they were saying basically to erase sexuality, instead of, you know, wear condoms. I can see being  in spaces that are safe for bipoc and LGBTQ- was that something that was really prevalent in your scene? Like, did you join Act Up? Or was there any crossover between the bands and any other type of activism?

Tobi Vail:  Kathleen‘s bisexual and she identifies as queer. And I don't know that I even knew my sexual orientation at that age. The band was not explicitly queer, but we were queer identified in a way [-or queer aligned]. And I think it's kind of a confusing [distinction], it confuses a lot of people. It was like, “Well, who are you guys?” You know, like, are you a part of this queer scene? Are you riot grrrl? Are you this or that? And I’d think, I don't even know really the answer. But I think what we were trying to do was directly inspired by- certainly, like, safe sex- that became a mutual aid thing. We had condoms at the merch table, because Kathi's mom gave us a box of them. And we were going on tour - because she was a public health nurse. People are dying of AIDS, and we're a band handing out condoms. Because there was a stigma against using condoms,  or even talking about it. So we had to just do stuff like that... it was creating this network. And at the same time, you know, like, I mentioned- having like, personal loss for me. Like, my uncle's first boyfriend died, I believe, of AIDS. And they were not together at that time, but that's the first human I ever remember in my life. And like, nobody ever talked about my uncle being gay, although nobody [in my family] had a problem with it. It just wasn't the culture that surrounded a lot of gay men in the 70s and 80s. You know, it was not something that people talked about. So I think that like when people started dying, that's when a lot of people came out. And, you know, us just not even being about our own personal identity so much- it was just like, we're just trying to be inclusive, it's okay, you know- be who you are. You're welcome here.

Ali Baker: I love that… I think that comes from people that’d come to scenes like yours- like the Tropicana, you know- that come from places where they're not accepted, and want to come to a space where they do feel included and accepted, and can be whoever they want...

Tobi Vail:  Yeah! And I want to be clear, there was definitely homophobia at the Tropicana scene,there were definitely not a lot of out punk rockers at that time [there were a handful], a little bit later, at Reko Muse- a little more inclusive, but not that queer. But the Smithfield was queer owned, and there was a lot of lesbian community there. Not so much gay men. There wasn't even a conversation around trans identity yet [within the punk scene]. But that said, when Bikini Kill started, a lot of the people who later came out as trans or queer- or became more vocal about their identity- were people who were coming to our shows, and bands we were playing with and stuff like that. But yeah, what I'm trying to say is- it was such a different time. Like, I don't know that there was any safe kind of community- nothing felt safe. People were dying. And nobody was really talking about it. It wasn't like we were even talking about it. I mean, we were a little bit- but I feel like it was just a part of what created our band, that political time period... without HomoCore or any of those queer punk scenes that were documenting women in punk, or being super outspoken about gender politics- I don't think we would have been the same band. So I think that that's a huge influence. And Mecca Normal.

Ali Baker:  When I volunteered at Kill Rock Stars, I was sending Mecca Normal tapes or CDs or vinyl out to radio stations.

Tobi Vail: Oh, cool. Yeah, they’re still a band today, they've been a band forever.

Ali Baker:  That's wild. And it’s the same people in it?

Tobi Vail:  It's the same two people.

Ali Baker: That's so cool. So is there anything else you want to say about the 80s and the 90s? And what led to you becoming a full time musician? Did you want to say anything else about that time period?

Tobi Vail:  Oh, well, yeah, we moved to DC. And then when I moved back, our band was more established. And the music culture here had completely changed. So before Nirvana got big, things were really small. You know, Kill Rock Stars didn't really exist, and K Records was like a cassette label, SubPop had put out a compilation or two, the seven inch club... by the 90s, it had all changed. So then, everything became more market -driven. And it was possible to make a living as a working musician, which is - one side of it being good. But then the music scene became a little bit like- it was just different. It felt less community oriented. It was all about making records and going on tour and promoting your image and selling records. And I mean, not in a cheesy way. It's just what people wanted to do. Like, “I wanna start a band, put out a record!” Whereas like, when I was a kid, it was like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna start a band, like the idea of putting out a record never would have occurred to me, because my dad’s band didn't put out a record, my granddad's band didn't put out a record, none of the bands that I was friends with had put out records, it was just about playing for each other, you know. And so in the 90s, it just changed to be more about… being more ambitious, really, and selling stuff. And I started working at Kill Rock Stars, just to support people who are putting out records in my scene or whatever.

Ali Baker:  Was that when you started Bumpidee?

Tobi Vail:  Oh, yeah. Bumpidee was my label. That was like a cassette label [I started in 1995]. That was more to just document stuff that didn't need to be a record or wasn't at the record putting out stage or whatever. It was more like going back to the K cassettes kind of thing of like, you make your own tape and then make a few copies and sell it through the mail. But that was fun. And that had a fanzine with it too, called The Bumpidee Times. And I was doing Jigsaw, and so I was documenting all of the bands and things. There was a lot of people I did not know, a lot of people who had moved here from other places, and a lot more shows than ever before. And the shows were bigger, and happened more frequently. And there were more and more group houses that put on shows.

Ali Baker:  Oh, wow… I know in 1990 and 1991… I feel like since the 60s, there hadn't been a musical revolution like that, and a cultural revolution. But did you feel that when you were in Bikini Kill, that- those first couple of years? Did you feel like there was something happening? Or did you just kind of go with the flow and reflect on it more in the future?

Tobi Vail:  Well, I would say that when that idea comes up, I think about my parents. So my parents- when they were born, rock'n'roll didn't exist. Soon rock and roll started happening. Then the Beatles, and you know, the Sonics and the Wailers- all those garage bands happen, then the hippie thing happened. They weren't even grown up yet. And all that had happened, and then by the time they hit 30 or whatever, Punk had happened. And so like, then when I was a teenager, hardcore punk happened, which was kind of a different movement. And then within that you had like, Emo and straight edge, and indie pop and college rock, you know, like, the kind of like, independent bands in the 80s that, like,- REM came out of that scene, or, you know, like, the Bangles or something like that. So to me, it just seemed like things were gonna keep going, because music culture was so tied to being a young person. And in the late 20th century, young people didn't want to be like their parents, you know. It was like, you create an identity using music culture, an aesthetic and style. And that's how people would have a voice and a community. And so by the time like grunge happened- or even Riot Grrrl to some degree after it got filtered through the media- it seemed almost like a marketing category. Like, How is this even different than other kind of rock and roll? Like, it's just being marketed to you. Like, is it actually like a sub cultural identity, or not? I don't know. And now things have changed. Because after the internet happened, like, things fractured, but also, like, I don't think music culture is as tied to youth culture [now].. Music, rock and roll and all that, like, it's not really as tied to youth culture as it was before. Hip Hop is a huge thing to include in like these different eras of subcultures and pop music.  And that's kind of happening alongside punk and hardcore, like, say, in New York, or LA or more urban areas. I mean, also in Seattle/Tacoma it’s happening alongside it.

Ali Baker:   Yeah, it's kind of always been like that. Like, in the 70s in New York City, you had the punk movement at CBGBs, and then you had disco, like Studio 54. But you also had hip hop that was just starting up, and it feels like those things have always kind of existed in the underground alongside each other, particularly punk and hip hop.

Tobi Vail:   Yeah, I mean, I would say like, what happens Nationally- like, you know, with grunge and stuff, is just like- the kind of music that our friends bands- that just became mainstream pop music, so that's kind of how I see it.

Ali Baker: Yeah, was that weird when friends’ bands were like...

Tobi Vail:  Yeah, [laughing] it was very weird. Yeah, it's so weird.

Ali Baker: What was your reaction? Like, when you started- I mean, like, all these bands are so big now. But back then, bands like… for instance in Minneapolis, like Babes in Toyland. Like, they're huge, like you guys- They're huge in my heart. They loom so large, but back then, I don't know if it was like that.

Tobi Vail:    Well, Babes in Toyland played here in the late 80s a number of times. In fact, I saw them at Reko Muse, I saw them play on the west side at Pat Maley’s house like on 14th Street, in between Cooper Point and Division at Yoyo studios. I feel like they played here more times than that. I'd seen them in Duluth, the Go Team played with them. But yeah, they never really became super mainstream. But I guess it was also like the Olympia music scene was thought of as being very anti major label- and it was, but what we were trying to do was build an alternative to corporate controlled media. So you know, there was a bit of a like a “sell out” kind of attitude towards someone who's signed to a major label. But obviously, even at the time, we could see there were pros and cons. I was pretty close minded about it, though... like, I felt a bit bummed when Nirvana signed to major label. Because I didn't really understand it, I was like, “you actually don't need to do that, we can create this whole alternative to that.” But... they made their own choice, and their choice was different than mine. But when they did sign to a major label, that's actually when it became more viable to be an independent label. So it kind of worked in everyone's favor, because then they let Kill Rock Stars include one of their songs on the first Kill Rock Stars compilation. And that certainly brought a lot of attention to the other bands that were on it like Unwound or Bikini Kill, or Nation of Ulysses, Bratmobile. And they would talk about our bands when they did interviews and they talked about Fitz of Depression, they talked about Bikini Kill,  and that brought attention to our scene, it brought attention to Olympia for sure. It's big reason a lot of people moved here just because they thought Nirvana was from here or whatever. So, yeah, it was complicated.

Ali Baker:  Yeah. Was it just weird to see like flannel and all that stuff all over the TV, like the GAP, and all this kind of appropriating like Northwest culture, or did you not really care?

Tobi Vail:  It was just kind of silly. Yeah, I mean, it was ridiculous. It wasn't like you’d get mad, like “Oh, that's my style you're appropriating.” Yeah, it was just like, what?? You think that's fashion? That's ridiculous. That's just what you would wear to go fishing in the rain... you know, whatever. It just seemed funny.

Ali Baker:  Yeah, totally. It's my Trader Joe's on a Tuesday night outfit.

Tobi Vail:  Yeah. So you know, I think everyone was kind of just confused.

Ali Baker:  Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. So we've talked a lot about the past and, and I want to talk a little bit more, but I want to kind of go forward to past the 90s a little bit to talk about Ladyfest. That happened in Oly in 2000, right?

Tobi Vail:  Yeah, the first Ladyfest took place in 2000. And it was the product of 52 different women who came together to organize it. And we spent the whole year organizing it, so it actually started in 1999, even though the festival didn't start until 2000. That summer, and there had been a number of music festivals in Olympia, like International Pop Underground is something that K records put on. And that happened in the summer of 1991 at the Capitol Theater. And then, in the 90s, Pat Maley from Yoyo records started a festival called Yoyo A Gogo, and there was a number of those, and I missed all that. I was always on tour or something when Yoyo was happening. But after Bikini Kill broke up, I did go to a Yoyo, I think it was ‘99. I'm not sure if there was Yoyo ‘98 and ‘99, or just ‘99. But anyways, I'd gone to a Yoyo. And you know, people were talking about, well, we should do a Ladyfest. Woodstock ‘99 had just happened, and so people knew that festivals were sexist, were not safe, were a place where women got assaulted. Not only that, but like women were not ever- hardly ever asked to headline festivals, play festivals, equally compensated- and that's still true. It's very rare to go to a music festival and see any all-female bands or feminist bands. Mostly that doesn't happen in high profile spots. So, Alison [Wolfe] from Bratmobile- she grew up here, and she was home a lot that year because her mom had cancer. Her mother Pat Shively passed away that year. So she had to be here a lot, and she wanted a project to work on. So she was kind of telling me we should do Ladyfest. And I wasn't really that involved in the activist portion of riot grrrl. And it took a little convincing to get me to want to do Ladyfest. So, it's a lot of going to meetings and a lot of learning how to work with other people on consensus decision making. Being in a band is really hard already, just dealing with four people. So keep in mind, this is like 52 people. But I did it! So Alison and I were like, Okay, well, we want to have bands, and then it quickly became like 50bands are going to play. And then, “how do we decide who to ask?” So we had to come up with this set of criteria- like, “it can't just be our personal taste, we want to have this be a feminist festival”. So we want it to be women of all ages, women who have just started out, but also the women who have been around since the beginning of punk.  So we wanted local bands, national bands, international bands... also, as far as genre, we wanted to represent all of the genres within punk and indie music at the time. So… when someone would be like, “we want this band to play,” we were like, “Well, okay, do they fit any of these criteria?” [laughing] You know what I mean? We'd have to talk about it. And then finally, we came up with a list and we had to ask the bands, and then someone else would have another committee- like, Carrie Brownstein was on the budget committee. So they were trying to get the money to fund the festival, and they did a really good job. Then there was someone else doing a visual art committee- and I was like, why do we need to do that? And it was like, well, we don't need to, but there's people who want to do it. So that could be a part of this too. I was like, “okay”, you know. Like, it became more than just music. And then one of the things that- I'd always had like a little bit of a like “ugh” [feeling] about Riot Grrrl was like… why do we have to start this feminist movement centered around a particular gender identity? Because I felt like that was almost like reinforcing a binary. And I did kind of bring that up, because it was something I was thinking about a lot after reading feminist theory and queer theory in school for that year. But then, you know, it was also largely irrelevant, because it didn't really matter so much like what we called it, it was just needed. So whatever. But in order to make feminism inclusive, you want everyone to feel welcome. So having like this identity, it was kind of tongue in cheek, like funny- like, “Ladyfest”- because like, what is a lady anyways? It could be whatever. But it was definitely like a feminine kind of... women, you know. At the same time, that was right when people are starting to talk more about trans issues within feminism and talk more about questioning the gender binary. And so I felt a little bit reserved about that whole thing, but I think it was a reactionary movement. I think even Carrie brings that up when I talked to her for this project. But really, it was in reaction to sexism. And so it wasn't like we would have necessarily- like, if we were already included in a normal festival, quote, unquote, “normal,” if we were already included in mainstream culture, we wouldn't have to create a political identity around our gender in order to draw attention to our work, you know? It's a necessary stage. I mean, it felt necessary, it felt vital, it felt like things were too male dominated. So we needed to create an alternative. And for better or worse, whether or not it enforced a certain another kind of standard that then needs to be questioned- it definitely did. But it happened in one moment in time. But the thing that was cool was the internet had already been around for a couple years, and so people who are a little bit younger who were more internet savvy or had more extensive computer experience got involved in saying “if we all keep notes of our meetings, and then we put them up on a listserv, and made that public, then we can document what we're doing. And other people can make Ladyfests where they live based on our example,” like they can see from our mistakes, or they can learn from the things we did correctly, they can look at our conversations and see what they might want to do differently. So it was all documented on a listserv or something that was then open to the public. And then we were just like, “oh, yeah, you can have a Ladyfest where you live.” So that wasn't just the first one, that happened all over the world. It literally happened all over the world! And so that was kind of cool. And then that kind of died out, and I think that's fine, too. Like, maybe it was a reaction. And then, now is there something else to replace it?

Ali Baker:Yeah. What do you think's gonna be the next thing to replace it with going like what's on your radar?

Tobi Vail:   I mean, I'm like 53 years old. So whatever kids are doing now, hopefully... It has nothing to do with my life. But at the same time, I'm still a musician playing music so I know that the local Olympia music scene is thriving. I know that after COVID there's all these all ages shows of teenagers, some of them at the Voyeur, some of them at the Mortuary. Some of them at house shows. I know that's going on. I see stuff about it all the time. I don't know any of the new bands. Like, I know a couple of the bands. I knew like one band that had like young people in it. One or two... I don't know, Fugitive Bubble, they're really good. And then The Gobs, but I think they broke up. But I'm kind of out of touch. And that's fine, I'm older. But I really do think that it's cool that there's those all ages spaces and that the Capitol theater still has all ages music spaces. But I think there's a real need in Olympia for an all ages space that is done aboveboard. It's licensed, it's inclusive, encourages young people to play music and have shows of young people that- y’know, like have a show that your parents will let you go to, you know what I mean? Like if you're like a teenager, and you're like, I want to go to this show, if it’s at some weird college kid’s house in the woods, your parents are probably not going to let you go. There should be a place that's like Vera Project in Seattle -Olympia  needs something like that. And we did have the Olympia All Ages Project for a while, and the Northern. But we don't currently have anything like that going on. And I think that we really need that- Also, not just for kids, but for people of all ages, because the cost of living is so expensive here. And… the city's grown. There's no practice space in Olympia. So I think, either subsidized by the city or just completely run as a business. Olympia needs practice spaces we need, we need that really bad. You could totally run a successful business like they do in every city by having a practice space that rents by the hour and is secure, make sure no one's living there and closes at night. It's locked. Not just some kind of storage space, sketchy situation- which is fine, but it's not really what I'm talking about. I just think there needs to be an above board one, because we have a lot of musicians here that don't have anywhere to play. I mean, as a drummer, I can't tell you how many times someone asks me where I practice and if they can use my space.

Ali Baker:  Yeah, I actually was asking Rachel Carns where I could find the practice space in Olympia for Summer [Summer Schief] and I, and she was like, “I don't know.”

Tobi Vail: But there is nowhere, so it's like you kind of just have to buy a house and hope your neighbors like don't care, or go to someone's house where they have a cool rental… and the neighbor's can't hear it or something.

Ali Baker: Totally. I know. Yeah, I've definitely had the cops called. Like, we tried to practice out on Cooper Point Road or something one time and the cops showed up immediately.

Tobi Vail: Yeah, it's unfortunate... that needs to happen.

Ali Baker:Yeah, definitely. Did you know that- a little fact- in Burlington, Vermont, Bernie Sanders started in all ages punk venue in the ‘80s?

Tobi Vail:  I have heard that. I've never played it in Vermont, but we're gonna play in Vermont on this next tour that we're doing. In Burlington, actually,

Ali Baker:  I saw that, I know... my partner's family is from Vermont. So I'm going to try to get them to go out.

Tobi Vail: Oh, cool. Yeah, my cousin lives there. There's only about four states I haven't played. And Vermont is one of them. I think.

Ali Baker:  Have you played all over the world, like ‘80s, ‘90s?

Tobi Vail:  I’ve only played in North America, Europe, Australia, Japan, and New Zealand. It's not all over the world, but it's more places than I would have gone without music!

Ali Baker:  Yeah. Speaking of places, I don't want to keep you too much longer. I know we've been on for a while, but I want to ask you- what makes Olympia so special? Like, why do you choose to stay instead of moving to, like, Portland or LA?

Tobi Vail:  To me, those places are too big. So, my family's here but also, it's beautiful. I love the water. The rain kind of bums me out as I get older. But, you can always travel- or hopefully you can, unless your job makes it so you can't. But being a musician, you get to travel. Why Olympia? I don't know. It's hard to think of a better place. I mean, the cost of living is high, we have a huge housing crisis. It's horrible. That's national- but also just specific to the West Coast, I think is really bad. But whenever I think about going somewhere else, I don't know where that would be. I was just in Astoria seeing the Unwound reunion and the town I used to live in is really near Astoria. And it made me remember how big Olympia seemed when I moved here, when I was 10 years old. Like, we have city buses. There's a library. There's more than a couple hundred people. To me, it's not a small town, because I actually lived in a small town really far away from everything. So to me, it's a small city. I know a lot of people who are from big cities think of it as a small town, but it's really not. The music scene is kind of small, but it's not too small for me. Like, I don't know who all the bands are, I don't know all the people, I've never been able to keep up with everything that's happening. You know, there's always a movie to go to at the Capitol Theater. There's always a show to go to. It's not like there's a lack of stuff going on here.

Ali Baker: Yeah, for sure. Okay, well, I really appreciate you talking to me today and doing this interview and appreciate, like I said, your contribution to music. I myself, personally, I'm a big fan of you. [laughing]

Tobi Vail:  Thank you.

Ali Baker:, I feel awkward, but it's been a long time and I'm, like, pinching myself. So I really appreciate you and all the work you've done. And the things that you're continuing to do with your sister. I know you're running Bikini Kill records.

Tobi Vail:  Yeah, and I play in a local band called Morgan and the Organ Donors, we have a record coming out on Perennial/K on April 28 2023. So hopefully, after Bikini Kill reunion tour wraps up, Morgan and the Organ Donors will be playing some local shows. And I want to do some solo shows too, but I'm not totally ready yet. I haven't done that in a long time. It's been over 10 years.

Ali Baker:  That's that's so cool and exciting to think about. The video for Morgan and the Organ Donors was great too, I just caught that a little bit. I really loved it.

Tobi Vail:  Thank you for having me.  Do you have any more questions? I don't really have any more answers....

Ali Baker:  I don't think so, I stole one from... the one you asked Beth Ditto- what would you like the city of Olympia to do to support the music scene? But I think you talked about that.

Tobi Vail:  Oh, yeah, I would really like the city of Olympia to create a local music based festival, like a festival where local musicians curate it. And local musicians are represented in the festival. Not that they aren't doing that already, but an official one would be great. Like, how they have bands at lake fair. There's never like- Lake Fair bands, they always exist alongside the music scene. There's never been- like, you know, when Nirvana was a big band, you didn't see them playing Lake fair, they would play like huge shows in Seattle, they rarely asked by the city of Olympia to play anything And you know, the same with a lot of the bands here. So I think it would be cool to have more support and more acknowledgement of the vital aspects of the music scene here that has been internationally influential, not just on underground music, but has also influenced mainstream popular music and culture. And, while we're definitely at a different point here now than we were in the 90s. There's still bands that exist locally that could have more of a local audience, and I think that the city could help with that. And they could support all ages venues, and maybe practice space.

Ali Baker: All right. You hear that, Olympia? [laughing] Absolutely. All that sounds really good. Thank you for sharing that. And thank you for being here with me today, Tobi.

Tobi Vail: Thank you.