John Shultz:

Hey, this is John Schultz with the Olympia Indie Music [History] Project. I’m here with Scott Freeman of Engine 54. And I'm sure some more. Thanks for coming.

Scott Freeman: 

Thanks for having me. 

John Shultz:

So you weren’t born in Olympia, you weren't born here.

Where were you from?

Scott Freeman:

I came from back east as a young person. I lived in Wyoming for a little while as a young, young one, but Pennsylvania. I migrated out here in my sophomore year of high school so I was kind of a, you know, I was a transplant,

John Shultz: 

Which was what year?

Scott Freeman:
That was in 1988, ‘87. It was interesting to come from that kind of oppressed scenario where I was skater kid, and I liked music and stuff that nobody else really did.

John Shultz: 

Farm land.

Scott Freeman: 

Yeah, I didn't really fit in over there, even though that was kind of part of my heritage. So there's a very tight knit thing that went on back there, because part of the daughters of the revolution and all these different kinds of-- this family kind of comes from that background. So that's still there. But anyway, came here.

John Shultz: 

Where’d you go to high school?

Scott Freeman: 

Timberline. Yeah. Moved to Lacey. And I had no idea. However, you know, I think what struck me about Olympia in general, wider net, was that the people that I met right away were kind. They recognized you as being a little different. And I was brought in by a good group of people, and we went skating every day. And we weren’t anywhere near Timberline. I mean, most of the time we were in downtown, you know. So that's where that came from. And there was a lot of people playing music in my school, at Timberline. Yeah, there were a lot.

John Shultz:

When did you start getting into music? Quite a bit younger? Do you grow up with it, did your folks turn you on to it?

Scott Freeman:

Yeah, my dad and my aunt back in Pennsylvania, they played. I came from a family of music, but my grandfather, who actually is from Spokane-- was originally from Arkansas. He was a big band musician during war. And he went and fought in the war and came back and he built a studio in Spokane. And he would have country bands, country musicians and whoever come through and do recording at his studio. So he's got hours of tape and stuff that he's given to archives and stuff, of the musicians. So I grew up around a lot of instruments. Just picking things up and being able to play them.

John Shultz: 

What was your first instrument?

Scott Freeman:

It was a guitar.

John Shultz: 

How old were you?

Scott Freeman: 

Eight or nine? My aunt showed me how to play it. And then I beat up on this guitar that, like-- the action was like 25 inches from the board. I’m surprised my fingers survived. But, yeah, I mean, I loved it. And we’d play church functions or, you know-- I never got up and became a rocker at that point. So my freshman year, there was a barn kind of behind my grandmother's house, in Pennsylvania. And one day in the summer-- I spent a lot of time at Grandma's house back then. I heard drums playing back there. I was like, “Oh, I have to go figure out what's going on.” I'd hover around them. And I hear this kind of band, this metal band, kind of playing in this garage, in this shack. Basically upstairs of a garage, essentially-- it was like a barn. And they finally let me come in. You know, because they were older. I mean, God, they were probably in their 20s, I'm just a little kid essentially, you know, 15-16 years old, maybe. And everything was there. The electric instruments that-- I really only had experience with my grandfather's and wasn’t really allowed to like sit down and plug in a pedal steel or something, you know. So they let me like pick up the electric guitar and I'd never played one before. And it was like-- I don't

remember what it was. It was like a flying V or something. It was very metal. You know? And the action was so low and I can smoothly do stuff, and the distortion made me sound good. So I was like, “This is it. I'm gonna play metal.” Then I moved, and I came to my senses. [laughter]

John Shultz:

So you started listening to metal early?

Scott Freeman:

Oh, yeah, I was, you know. Ride the Lightning of course, you know, all that good– That was a great album.

John Shultz: 

Their best, downhill ever since.

‍

Scott Freeman: 

I think so. Yeah. And to be honest, I wasn't huge into some of the ‘70s Metal-esque music. Not until later. Not until it was kind of reintroduced by this--

‍

John Shultz: 

So like what? Like, early Judas Priest?

Scott Freeman: 

Yeah, that kind of stuff, which I didn't catch the groove or the feel of it until later in life, you know. But... in my senior year of high school at Timberline, which– actually there was a new school that started, it was called New Century, and it was part of the Schools of the 21st century thing that Reagan-- [inaudible] But it was done during the night because he couldn't do it during the day. And at the time, you had to have a certain GPA to get into the thing. And so some friends of mine, we kind of helped with curriculum and teacher hiring. And we were involved in meetings, and it was something that I could really feel like I was a part of. But during that time, we set up a club, just to have a club. And it was music club, right, because Timberline had a music club, but it wasn't what we wanted to do. So Brian, who will not forgive me if I can't remember his last name. He ended up playing guitar in Dub Narcotic. Brian... I can't remember his name. Him and Chris played, [Chris] Sutton. Ryan--

John Shultz: 

Yeah, on drums.

Scott Freeman: 

Yeah, he was actually in my class. He was my age. And so him and I and a couple other people-- my friend Krista Graham. We set up like a little band in there. And then we ended up playing the Timberline talent show playing Zeppelin covers, which was killer. And it was a lot of fun.

John Shultz: 

If you say so.

Scott Freeman: 

Yeah. I know how you feel. [laughter] But you know, at that point, I was like, oh, we should really try to do something fun and interesting. And original, right? So I was trying to find things to do. And my friend Robbie, he wanted to learn how to play guitar. I had a bass and he was writing these like-- he was really into They Might Be Giants and kind of quirky Devo stuff. He was a kind of a new waver kid. He wanted to do something. And I was like, You know what, let's just do something really simple because you're learning to play guitar, kind of this rock and roll, rockabilly type thing. And we'll put some songs together. And we called it the Cheese Flavored

Kitties. Yeah, the CFK because why not? His cat got into a thing of Cheetos. He had it all over his face, all over his paws. He's walking around on our shit-- papers, you know, that had lyrics on it, had like, orange cat prints on it. 

John Shultz:

So what kind of music was Cheese Flavored Kitties?

Scott Freeman:

It was kind of just like-- well, so just to put it in context, It wasn't very much longer-- and I think I just the one thing I wanted to touch on This in general. Because of maybe Evergreen or just in general, when I landed here, the entire soup was already in the bowl. All the elements were prepared for anybody to do pretty much anything, and be as successful as they wanted it to be. Because the venues and the people that were running the venues and like all of these different folks that were really involved in have making sure that music culture and things were happening. Reko Muse and all these different things that come as a cascaded down the line, you know. Backstage of course, I mean, they were all heroes. They all knew each other, right? And as big as you think that scene was, the pool of people was really narrow but everybody was kind enough to each other in a way to give somebody a chance. So when Mario's– Mario decided to open up the back of his space for a little bit. We jumped in and just asked whoever started-- I don't remember who was booking for that. Some kid from it. I don't know. Who knows whoever convinced Mario to do it. And we were like, “oh, we'll play a show with this silly band, Cheese Flavored Kitties. And it just happened to be with Seven Year Bitch. And I don't remember who else we played with. Yeah, we opened for Seven Year Bitch... I knew of them. I didn't really spend a lot of time with them before that. But there was somebody writing for The Rocket that was there for the show, because they were really kind of peeking up about that time.

John Shultz:

This would have been, what? ‘89, ‘88?

Scott Freeman:

Probably ‘90. Because that was the summer after high school for me. So that was ‘90, the summer of ‘90. And so we thought we did great. And I had this kid named John who was playing drums, he was like a lanky kid. He was from Capitol High School. He was still in high school. He played-- what was his name? Goodness gracious. I want to say it's like starts with an S, Sanderson or something. He disappeared, you know? But he practiced every day. He was kind of autistic with the drums.

John Shultz:

All right, we had technical difficulties. We're back. All right. I think where we

left off was you opened for Seven Year Bitch.

Scott Freeman: 

Yeah, and the reason why I bring it up is because you asked the question, “What do we sound like?” So it sums it up in the article-- in the review from The Rocket, where the writer said they sounded like Rush on helium. So there you go. That's what it sounded like, evidently. Rush on helium.

[All laughing]

John Shultz:

The Chipmunks do Rush.

Scott Freeman:

Yeah, right. And as bad as that was for us as a review, I was just stoked that we were in The Rocket. And you know, the ladies from Seven Year Bitch were super cool to us. We hung out and had beers. and Matt Hickey got you know, too crazy and get kicked out of the King Sol’s again. So you know, there's that.

John Shultz:

There's always some good stories... classic. [laughing] So how long did Cheese Flavored

Kitties hang around?

Scott Freeman:

Oh, jeez, probably only that summer. Maybe into the next year, we kept kind of putzing around with thing. I don't think-- I mean, jeez, we probably did like another show or something. I don't remember. Robbie and I, Robbie Bakewell... we got this bass player. His name was Allen.

John Shultz: 

Allen who?

Scott Freeman: 

Kashani. He went to Capitol, he ended up playing in the U DUB [University of Washington] jazz band. He was a really, really good bass player. Which kind of moved me-- and that John kid, he couldn't handle leaving the house. So I jumped on the drums because I was just kind of-- I was really getting into it. And I picked up on it really fast. So we decided to just kind of play around with some more interesting stuff, because Allen was an amazing bass player. And I wanted to be able to keep up with them, and they really pushed me hard on the drums to do some interesting things. So we were really trying to find just a sound that we enjoyed. So we ended up having some, just we kind of got inundated with ska and reggae music, just because of--

John Shultz: 

Who discovered that, who brought that to the table? 

Scott Freeman: 

Well, I grew up-- I think it was probably me. Because we lived in a house at that point in Lacey and we would have friends over or whatever. And there's this kid, I think his name is we called him Squirrel. But he had an Op Ivy thing, he was really into Op Ivy. And Robbie, really, he clung on to it pretty good, too. But we all kind of were like, “Ooh, this is a cool punk sound that's different, like Clash-y, yes. But once we started understanding the roots of that music, and just kind of letting it kind of wash over us over time, the whole the whole ska vibe was like-- it was super cool, because it's about as punk as you're gonna get. Right? As it comes from, like, something that has a message, and a story, and a background and a protest. And it has-- and it's also encouraging. It's about lessons, you know, it's about life, which you can say for almost everything. However, they're quite literal if you listen to any reggae music, or anything like that. You're gonna hear that message. So I think that was like, “Oh, that's really cool. And we can do this, this seems pretty simple. You know, let's figure out how to do it.” And then we were open to-- our eyes were open to this entire culture across the United States and Europe heavily and so that's kind of where it started.

John Shultz: 

It was like ‘91-ish? Okay. Yeah, ska seemed to be pretty-- From then to like the late 90s, really was kind of big-- a lot of ska.

Scott Freeman:

There was yeah, it was really underground for a long time, though. I mean, it didn't really hit until I mean, you got, you know, all the other bands that kind of hit radio. But yeah, that's kind of how that started. It was actually a more of a conscious choice to do reggae and ska music, mostly because we thought-- I was really into the more aggressive side, the punk side of it, I was really into that. I really liked that Op Ivy sound, I thought it was just grindy and brutal. And I wanted to do it. But as I learned more about it, I was really taken by the roots kind of folky side of it. And I mellowed out really fast. For whatever reason.

[laughing, laughing]

John Shultz: 

So was that when Engine 54 started?

Scott Freeman:

The first iteration of that, yeah, we called it the Acme Ska Corp, right? Because we wanted to-- kind of just just something simple-- corp of people, like, you know, a core of musicians. That's why it’s C-O-R-P. We started bringing-- [chuckle] The thing about being that age and being so close to high school- you still knew people kind of doing that thing, or even in college or whatever. So we knew a lot of band musicians. Not punk rock band, but like trumpet players, saxophonist, trombones, things like that. So we were recruiting these kids coming in and saying to them, “here, come play some music with us. Here's what this supposed to sound like.” And we’d give them a little bit of a tape or whatever. And they'd come in, and then I had to arrange the horns. And that's how we got that sound. Right. And so, yeah, it was fine. We recorded one record, a few tracks off of-- you know, I guess it's probably like six songs or whatever. Early on. It was just handed out on tapes. You know, as that grew, we didn't really have like a singer, per se. It was just mostly just kind of orchestral kind of music in a way. Ska orchestral. So, you know how things go. I mean, people move on do different things.

John Shultz: 

Or you fire ‘em.

Scott Freeman: 

Yeah, or you fire ‘em. We brought a keyboardist in. And he was a friend of ours, and him and I skated all the time, and he ran a skateboard company that I was involved in called Suburban Skateboards. Lance Asher, dear friend. And he started playing keyboard. He didn't ever play an instrument in his life. Like, “Lance, you're playing keyboards.” “Okay,” learned it. We got this big Hammond organ in there. And he ended up buying a Rhodes piano. Yeah, it was crazy. As we were doing that, we were just doing tiny little gigs. We’d play at like the The Public House in front of the window. You know, just doing that kind of thing-- a couple of Backstage shows, you

know, but nothing really serious. But we were noticing that people were coming to these shows, and they were starting to get dressed in suits. And we were creating this like- we weren’t creating it, we were cultivating this other culture within Olympia music, which is not what anybody was used to. Actually we thought it was going to start scaring people, and we were honestly a little bit worried. Because even some of the people in the band wore more edgy suspenders and boots skin type look, you know what I mean?

John Shultz: 

Oh, Oi, Yes?

Scott Freeman: 

Oh, yeah, definitely oi, right. That was their thing. There was this kid Monto was an amazing cook, by the way-- he was really into oi, you know?

John Shultz: 

It has connotations. Right?

Scott Freeman:

Right. It does. And so we were worried about the skinhead element, you know scaring either the general kids that would come to the shows, or whatever. But there was some of that. I mean, we did get some initial like, “ehhhh,” you know, from the regular... bully people? Yeah, it was mostly like the people we knew and kind of the K crowd and stuff that would get all bent because they were like hell bent on their own. And they'd see somebody that looked a certain way. And they’d call them out as a skinhead. And they really weren't, and we'd have problems with that. But it was mostly K kids and Riot Grrrls doing that kind of stuff. So there was a little bit of a weird conflict in that. Which, we were actually quite surprised, to be honest, because we were of the mind before that point, that there was a lot of open minded people in Olympia. And when we saw some closed doors, we were like, that's really not how it is. And so we spent a lot of time I know, I know, I did. I know. I don't know what the others did, but just kind of communicating with people, explaining that they're not skinheads. They're just into this type of music kind of thing. I mean, look at a Specials video on MTV. I mean, you know, we're not that. We don't condone

anything. We're just here to... play music and have people enjoy it and dance and have a good time. And we held that line.

‍

John Shultz: 

And did it work?

Scott Freeman: 

For the most part. I mean, racism is rampant. So we saw firsthand, these groups

of people coming-- starting to come to our shows, you know. And there were many

occasions where we'd stop and we'd have people ejected.

John Shultz: 

Locally?

Scott Freeman: 

Locally. Yeah. Mostly in Oregon. We played out in Oregon. Yeah, Portland, and

Eugene and all of that. The Wow How in Eugene was always a problem with skinheads.

John Shultz: 

Interesting... because of the music, was there a lot of African American guys that’d come to the show who were into ska? Is that what brought these skins out and want to start throwing down?

Scott Freeman:

They were just there to be stomping. “We're gonna go and we're gonna stomp and we're gonna be-- we're gonna go ahead and let out some steam and we're going to we're going to be a bunch of dickheads.” Just like you'd have with-- now, I'm not going to compare this, It's not the same because of their ideology, they’re complete fuckheads-- but you'd have some punks come in and they would do the same thing. Except they wouldn't target people. They wouldn't, you know, put up their right hand in the air. You know, they wouldn't do weird shit. And they're just punks and we liked them. Any asshole skinhead that was being a punk was ejected. Being a dick.

John Shultz:

They were throwing Zeig heil?

Scott Freeman: 

Oh, yeah. Do you remember when Fugazi came one year-- which, they came a lot-- But one year, they played the [Capitol Theater] Main Stage. And we had played like, I don't know, two weeks before that.

John Shultz: 

What year would this have been?

Scott Freeman: 

Oh, God, I don't remember.

John Shultz:

Full stage Fugazi-- ‘91? Two?

Scott Freeman:

Maybe three, maybe a little later. Yeah. But he threw out a bunch of Nazis that were still hanging around. Really. Ian stopped the show, kicked them out. You know, he wasn't gonna put up with it. He-- they had the same problem. They had the same exact problem that we had. You know, I talked to the drummer a little bit about it, you know, like, “we-- same thing. Like, what is this?” Then he's like, “well, you know, all types of people.” [laugh] And that was just kind of the general attitude, you know?

John Shultz:

Yeah, they had that bald head ,straight edge, East Coast feel, it brought some of that in.

Scott Freeman:

It did, because they thought, well, “these are our people, but they're not--” you know? Go away.

John Shultz:

Yeah. When I had a mohawk it was you know, skinheads. It’s one of those fuckin’ things like, Come on, man! Seriously? It's a waste of time.

Scott Freeman:

So that was a weird element that happened to us that we didn't expect to happen. We were just there to play some music and enjoy ourselves.

John Shultz:

Where do you think these skins came from? Like if they were here in Olympia? Where were they coming from?

Scott Freeman:

They were coming from everywhere, man. I mean, Southern Washington movie they come

from-- I mean, some lived here. That was around that time when that kid got murdered

in the tunnel by those skins. So that was around that kind of explosion of skins.

John Shultz: 

I never realized skins were here. I saw that documentary years ago and I completely forgot about it...

Scott Freeman:

Yeah. So you know, there was a lot of this kind of percolating violence that was happening on the sidelines that we really, I mean, to our discredit, ignored. But we weren't-- we didn't feel like we were big enough to have a voice. We were just there to-- we were in that mindset. We were just there to enjoy ourselves and play some music. We don't have a political-- unless We're literally saying, Get the fuck out and hold crowds like “yeah!!!” You know what I mean? But we never-- we didn't take that on like some musicians did.

John Shultz:

That's interesting because I've got guys like for this project Nathan Paul and Chris Pugh [from] Young Pioneers, early ‘80s-- like they said, “now, there was no violent shit. It was cool. Everybody was cool.” I’m just like, “well, when did that come in?” Because, you know, you hear the stories of the Cuckoo's Nest downtown started getting violent. The Vandals shows and other things. Yeah. That was probably, yeah, about the late 80s. Kind of---

Scott Freeman:

The early 90s. Yeah.

John Shultz: 

I didn't see it a whole lot myself. Well, we were always fighting for-- Never, never a stance like-- now, I’d fight a skinhead, don't get me wrong. I'll go throw down right now. But I never did. I never saw that, I didn't realize it was that such a skinhead element was so large and again, I only saw you guys couple times. I mean, [not very into] ska, myself.

Scott Freeman:

Yeah, it was an interesting, it was a it was a an unfortunate happening It wasn't necessarily a drag. Andwe dealt with it when we needed to deal with it. But we didn't really put a lot of-- but what we did do was like, the people who were in the crew that were more leaning towards more of a violent crime, a rough and tough kind of  thing, we’d split that. And that was kind of a point of contention. And they kind of rejoined as Engine 54, and were kind of doing this oi thing. But that lasted not even a couple of months. And then we came back and re-formed and actually put the material we've been trying to put together for a while and then did a self titled album and

recorded that here.

John Shultz:

That was what year?

Scott Freeman:

Maybe ‘92... Three[1993]. And then by that time, we had already made so many great  connections with bands that were coming through that we started playing a lot more shows and really kind of honed what we wanted, our sound started to kind of come together and was a little bit more soulful. And our actual stage shows came together. We planned everything out, you know, everything. And then we had the opportunity to bring Kelly VanCamp from The Noses in to play drums. And that really shifted it to a more professional deal. Because Kelly's you know, he's on top of it, he’s an amazing drummer. Yeah, but he's also such a great kind of people person and managerial type where we would, you know, have to coach ourselves into doing certain things and doing things a certain way and managing resources and people. Because obviously, you know, it was like 10 people! It required--

John Shultz: 

That’s the thing about ska bands, there’s like 14 fucking people on stage! It’s a lot, I can barely deal with four! [laughing] You know what I mean? So what year did Kelly come in?

Scott Freeman:

Oh, he was probably 1996, after The Noses quit. Yeah, ‘96. Late that summer or something.

John Shultz:

Jon [Merithew] said C Average started in ‘96.

Scott Freeman:

Right, that’s about it. Because they were banging away and they were sharing the same thing, a prologue there. Jon was playing with Kelly, Steph was over there. So we just kind of moved kelly next door. Jon, and them still played over there in C Average.

John Shultz:

I think I met you in ‘96-’97, Somewhere in there. I’ve known Kelly since who knows, I didn't realize he was in the band at that point. I'll be damned. It was a long time ago, used to drink a lot, so, you know! So when did like what you mentioned before that you played with a lot you played with The Specials, you played with No Doubt… How did that whole projection start? Like what was the first show that you went out with another band? “Oh, fuck, we want to play that.” I mean, when did that start?

Scott Freeman:

Well, that kind of started kind of early. I mean, even before Kelly, when we were getting our musicians that we were into, or these obscure ska bands that we wanted to play with. I think the highlight we were shooting for was like the king daddy of all ska music, which was the Skatalites. That was everybody. If you asked any of us, even Chris Sutton or any of us, we like, “that's who we want to play with. That's who we want to be. That's it.” And that was kind of the kind of the goal. So when we were doing these little other bands. It was big. It was a big deal to us. So like Skankin’ Pickle or Let’s Go Bowling. When we’d do shows with them it was great, you know, we loved it.

John Shultz:

I remember those guys, they were funny, they were good.

Scott Freeman:

Let's Go Bowling? Oh, yeah. They were super cool. And you know, we had a decent size house and so people would park their bus and stay at our house and that whole thing. So we got to know a lot of ‘em, make a lot of those-- that's how that happens. Get a lot of connections and get moving and broaden ourselves outside a little. We’d always continually play Olympia if we had a chance, but just being able to go and play a show somewhere else that's not a grunge band?

[laughter]

John Shultz:

Why do you think ska around here-- meaning the PNW-- resonated at that time? You know, because grunge was huge... Well, it's always been huge in Olympia. Was it younger people, like high school kids, mostly [the] scene here? Or who was it?

Scott Freeman:

I mean, we saw a decent sized group of people that were just a few years younger than us. And then as we got older and continued, it became a younger and younger crowd coming in. I think the attraction was, it was different and people could come and have a good time. If you hear a good ska band through the door of a building, and you're walking by and there's a $5 cover or whatever, you're gonna walk in. Because you're hearing people having a good time. It's unique. It has a little bit of an edge to it, you know. So I think there's a natural draw for people with that kind of music. Just kind of out of curiosity. And once you get somebody on the dance floor and see the energy, that's all over, that's it. [laughter] Exactly. Yeah. So it's a little bit different than-- I would consider myself kind of ridiculously critical at some point in my young life, because I would go to shows, and I would be like, “Mmmm… boring,” just listening and bobbing my head. And then I hear I go to like, a Gas Huffer show. And I’d be like, “Oh, that's it!” But then two weeks later, I'd see ‘em again and it was like “meh.” You know? But I think what really caught my attention– kind of burnt this into my brain, was the showmanship element, which Olympia didn't really have, was pretty much straight up right in your face, whatever you're gonna get, whether that's Riot Grrrl, whether that's just grunge, or whether that's like a Fitz [of Depression] type, you know, something like that. The Mummies came down and they played at the community center or something like that. And they were freaking amazing. And I loved it. And they were wrapped in TP. And I was like, “This is the coolest fuckin’ shit ever!” I was mesmerized by them just running around with paper towels and toilet paper wrapped around them. And it’s like, “I don't care how shitty you sound, right? It's fucking cool!” And that stuck with me, man. It stuck with me because I was like, “Well, let's try to give some people something. And we’d start with the lights out, we’d do light things, and we'd like, put on a show. And we would align the setlist to you know, pick up and slow down at the right times and let them leave being kind of tired.

John Shultz:

That stuff was was kind of lost after the ‘70s and ‘80s. The Alice Coopers, arena stuff. Yeah, seems like a lot of grunge and punk and shoegazer-- just you know, not much to it. I mean, you know, a light, and all I do is stare at this pedal board. It's boring, isn’t it?

Scott Freeman:

Yeah. And we didn't intend on doing this, but we-- I mean, this just sounds weird, But we had two women playing horns, which was just unique, right? So, I mean, they were attraction within and of themselves. And they loved it.

John Shultz:

That's cool. What was your biggest-- name some bands you played with that you were just like, “This is cool--” I mean, you wanted to play with, you got a chance to. Did you get to play with The Skatalites? The Specials?

Scott Freeman:

Yes, and then there were the other bigger bands in the 90s that kind of blew up, kind of what people thought ska was, you know, on the radio. So Reel Big Fish was one that we did shows with. Right. So like, hmmmmm... we weren't really that into it, y’know?

John Shultz:

More ska-punky kinda-- Goldfinger and No Doubt and those kinds of “ska...” So-Cal ska.

Scott Freeman:

Yeah, So-Cal ska. So we played with a lot of those groups.

John Shultz: 

You considered you guys more roots.

Scott Freeman: 

More roots, more soulful, it was a different kind of a feel. I feel like we had a

sound that was somewhat unique in that genre in itself, just because of how Dylan

would sing, and all of that.

John Shultz:

Dylan, what happened to him?

Scott Freeman:

He’s here, I think he's living in Oregon. I think some of them-- you know, we played with the Skatalites, which was amazing. And we've done shows with local groups that got big too... that I thought were really cool people. Like the Cherry Poppin’ Daddies down from down in Oregon. They're another showmanship band that we meshed with naturally so we did shows with them. The Crazy Eights, we did a thing with them a long time because it was like in Seattle. They were already-- like, they were old school. They were the original like, OG ska people from Seattle. Or wherever Oregon or whatever. [Portland. -ed] But there were other bands that I would have really loved to play with. But they weren't ska music, like Young Fresh Fellows. I really dug that sound. I mean, it was a little quirky and goofy, and I just liked that rock. Kind of like the Noses, you know what I mean? I really liked that sound a lot. And if I had not immersed myself in this genre, that's probably where I would have landed, strangely enough.

John Shultz:

What’d you think of what happened when grunge “broke?” Were you guys like-- Because you'd just kind of started. Were you fuckin’ buried?

Scott Freeman:

Yeah, and we were young, and we knew, we figured stuff [out]. For us, being unique and different opened a lot of doors that may or may not have been open before. Because we were already making inroads with people in the community. And so like, when shows would crop up, even if it just meant getting free tickets to see Alice In Chains at the chicken shell or whatever. Something like that, again, it just opened more doors because the scene kind of exploded. It's not like the people weren't already here. It's just more people were showing up. And we were really not-- Olympia in particular and even somewhat in Seattle-- we didn't have a lot of choice as to who we got to play with when we were really getting started. So we’d get billed with whoever. We played with tons of different grunge bands, you know. Yeah. But by the time we were doing it, we were a little bit too late. Now, if we had started doing this when I was a little older, I would have been able to open for bands, being the weird ska band, with bands that I really would want to like Mudhoney and things like that. I only got to go to those shows, I never played with them, you know what I mean? But you get to know the people in that scene, especially when you start recording.

John Shultz:

How many albums did Engine 54 put out?

Scott Freeman:

Just the two, but we got a publisher and they pushed us to do a lot of shows and things like that. They got us a gig for the Skip Spence tribute record. Skip Spence is the guitar player from Jefferson Airplane that ended up living in an insane asylum... he was kind of getting close to losing it. And going on, someone decided to put together a tribute album. Mudhoney was on it, Beck was on it. There's a bunch of people on it and we got put on on it and I thought, “That! there you go. We made we made it. That's it right there.” So, that was fun. I mean, that's cool to be on the same caliber of record as-- our music was seen to be skill level enough to be in that

space.

John Shultz:

Did you ever end up on any-- like Fitz of Depression, they ended up on that Empire Records soundtrack, that movie. You get anything like that? No movies or everything picked up?

Scott Freeman 30:34

No, because you know, by that time, you know, bands like like Reel Big Fish and what's the other band? Goldfinger-- You know, they’d be the ones the record players and publishers would pick and throw on there. But again, like we kind of missed-- if we had started a couple of years earlier, I think we would have been in a different space, whether good or bad. But irregardless, I wouldn't say we would be more popular. But we would have had different opportunities. Because again, like Olympia is microcosm. As cool as everybody sees it now, it was piddly in scale to what you'd see in the cities. Right? And you can't do the same things in Seattle as you could do in Olympia. So we really stayed in our microcosm for a long time.

John Shultz:

Too long, you think?

Scott Freeman:

Too long. Absolutely.

John Shultz:

A cop told me once, “Olympia is 18 square miles surrounded by reality.” It's a weird little pocket. 

Scott Freeman: 

That's exactly what it is!

John Shultz:

 I think I'm okay with that though. Because I think it is welcoming, you know, it is more-- potentially there's some skinheads, there's always gonna be pricks. There's always something right? It is small. Especially in like the ‘90s. I was writing practice, for example, when I met you

guys. It was like Chapel Hill, Austin and Olympia were like the trifecta of cool indie music. Yeah, maybe a little Minneapolis.

Scott Freeman: 

Minneapolis, for sure.

John Shultz: 

Yeah. It seemed like it was a thing. It's like, “Oh, wow. Everybody thinks K records is so cool, we're so small. Compared to Austin and Chapel Hill, they were teeming!

Scott Freeman:

We are so small. And we never thought of it like-- oh, we had Calvin record some songs that we had already recorded before on a-- and we wanted to use his basement, because he had some-- he had a Neumann tube mic, he had really cool crap in that Dungy [sic] basement there. And so... I think Kelly hooked it up. I don't remember who, but he agreed to record some stuff.

John Shultz: 

You were never signed to K Records...

Scott Freeman: 

No, he just he just agreed to record it. We paid him a few bucks for the time and the reel and we just did some really interesting-- I think it’s one of my favorite recordings.

John Shultz: 

Is that separate from the two albums you put out, then?

Scott Freeman:

Yeah. We wanted it to sound like Studio One. So Studio One was this recording studio in Jamaica. It was like the only place people would go. So this Dancehall music, with the Skatalites was the backing band for-- they would go around to do these Dancehall gigs around Kingston and stuff. Well, the studio was put together, and I'm kind of going to destroy the history. I'm gonna really screw this up. But the Skatalites and revolving musicians were kind of the band in that studio. And the equipment wasn't great. And I don't know how high they were all the time in there. But you’d get some really funky old ‘50s-- It was the ‘50s and ‘60s, right?-- sounds, and it sounded kind of like a tin can, but it was unique. It was a unique feel, different-sound studio. And probably spare parts, came in from Florida or whatever... But that's where Bob Marley recorded as a little kid. The Skatalites was the backing band. So like Jimmy Cliff, all those people played with the Skatalites. And they were-- by the time we got to them, and got be honored to play with them, you know, and hang out with them and stuff-- they were in their 70s. And we were just blessed to be able to play with some of them because you know, they weren't going to be around very much longer.

John Shultz: 

Probably not around now.

Scott Freeman: 

No, no one. Even Roland Alphonso passed away, and the trombonist [Rico], which is kind of a famous trombonist for that era of culture.

John Shultz: 

There was probably 73 of them...

Scott Freeman:

Yeah. Oh, there were quite a few. But interestingly enough, when we went to-- across from The Gorge, there's the River Amphitheater down there along the water. And we went and played that show with them. I think that was the first or second time we played with them. I don't remember. But the keyboardist that was hired to play with them was my nephew's cousin. I had no idea. Like, I think my sister talked to his grandma. And... she's like, “Yeah, I think so-and-so’s playing for that band that you're gonna go play with.” I was like, “No frickin way.” So I’m back there in the back, and introduce myself and who I was. And he's like, “No way!!! Family!!!”

[laughter]

John Shultz: 

Great. That's awesome... Since we talked before, I want to talk to you more about the

whole... you guys would rarely play-- you'd always play all-ages places. Never bars.

‍

Scott Freeman:

Oh, yeah. Not at the beginning. No.

John Shultz: 

How come?

Scott Freeman:

Well, we felt like because of the crowd, it would be unfair to a lot of the kids that would want to come to the show, because we'd already built up a following of younger people. And sometimes we wouldn't get a chance to play in an all ages place, so we ate it a few times, we had to do it. But you know, as our group got older, and they all started turning 21, that was a little bit easier. Plus the venues got bigger. So like, typically, there'd be a bar and an open all ages space, like a couple places in Portland, you know, like the Rock Candy-- that was a pretty easy win for--

John Shultz: 

Later on. They got busted for growing dope and became all ages. It happens.

Scott Freeman:

Yeah, but yeah. But you know, we did a thing at the Crocodile a couple times. And that was fine, you’d get different people coming. The ironic thing is that the older people were more snobby. And they were the ones with the heads down. And you'd have a sea of people that come see you and you're like, “Oh, it's a full space for the Croc,” or whatever, you know, the tables are full in the back, and people eating food and packed on the floor. And you start playing and they'd stand there and stare at you. And “Yeah, as I'm writing this down, I don't know like, Oh, like that singer doing that weird thing.” And you just do your best to like, not be angry. You know what I mean? Or get fucking stuck in that hallway behind the stage-- you ever been there? There's a hallway that was in the Crocodile behind the stage, which was the the way to get out to like the green room. I swear to God, you know, like Tad couldn't go back. It just wouldn't happen.

John Shultz:

He couldn’t even come through my door! [laughing] He’s a big boy! What do you think,

like in Olympia-- Why do you think younger kids gravitated towards ska so much as

opposed to, you know, all the punk that was going on?

Scott Freeman:

Well, because they could dress up and have a good excuse. They could go to the Goodwill and they could buy a cheap suit because there was a bajillion of them, and a pork pie hat and a white shirt or checkered shirt or whatever they wanted to do. And they could come do this thing. And you know, high school kids love that kind of shit. They like to be able to feel like it's Halloween and go have a good time every time. You know.

John Shultz: 

So there was more all ages spaces back in the ‘90s in Olympia, wasn't there? There’s

hardly any now, it's crazy.

Scott Freeman:

Oh, yeah. I mean, there's the Backstage and there was behind Mario's and then there was the Midnight Sun... that place was too fuckin’ tiny... for a band like us, it was awful.

John Shultz:

Most places in town were probably too small for your band, right? Jeez.

Scott Freeman:

Well, yeah. And then people at that show, I remember were like-- because people were like out in the street for that. And we never did it again because it was too much.

John Shultz: 

At Midnight Sun?

Scott Freeman: 

Yeah. And we would try to keep it quiet even, you know. There was a ton of really cool-- I think that one place before I was even kind of playing music in a band doing shows, were these little pop up things that would happen and of course, there was always parties. We did lots of little house parties. But I mostly enjoyed going to house parties and stuff and seeing bands. That was one really cool thing about that time. I think one of the coolest venues was Reko Muse, because it was an art thing, but it was also you know-- it mimicked a little bit of what was happening in Seattle. Because there were these kind of bigger shows that were artsy, you'd have a band, you'd have a light show, you'd have art you'd have-- It was just like an acid trip, you know? [laughing]

John Shultz:

Everyone stops here before an acid trip!

Scott Freeman:

But I remember going to a show up at something over on the docks in Seattle. And it was it was like “Faces of Death” on one screen. And it was like, some kind of Goth metal. And there was like art, flowers, in the other room with lights. And so you go into this thing, and you're like, “Aaaaaugh,!” you go into another room and it’s so bright and there's like flowers on the wall, like, “Oh, what the hell just happened to me?”

John Shultz: 

It’s a bad trip!

Scott Freeman: 

Well, yeah. So as far as Olympia is concerned, I think some people would try to mimic that a little bit. Then we had leader we had places like Thekla, but before Thekla there was the

Surf Club. The original Surf Club.

John Shultz:

Not the North Shore. It was the North Shore before then. Then it was Surf Club all ages... There was a lot of clove cigarettes there.

Scott Freeman: 

Yes. God, that was a big--

John Shultz: 

Gnarly, right? Damn. So how long have you the longer did Engine 54 last?

Scott Freeman:

Up until 2000. ‘99, 2000...

John Shultz: 

What happened?

Scott Freeman: 

I don't know, actually, to tell you the truth. I mean, we, we had shows booked, and there was like, a little lull. And we had material, we still have material, like five or six songs still sitting here. I think that it just got to a point where-- and others may disagree, that we needed to change, and I think that the idea of change was different to every single person. And when that happens, it's a lot harder to come to a central point. So we just literally stopped booking shows. I mean, that's

how it ended, just very quietly, just like, Kelly-- we were gonna book this, and I'm like, “let's hold off for a little bit to figure out what we're doing. Are we gonna go back into the studio? Are we going to do this material, or are we going to just sit and write, and really concentrate on the music part of it? Because the showmanship side of it was like, “We need to mature, we need to figure something out here. Because we’ve got a good sound and we’ve got good material, we just don't know what to do with it.” And so, yeah, we just kind of fizzled out. I mean, it wasn't

like we exploded at each other or hated each other. I mean, we were like a family, obviously. But at some point, you just kind of like, “I don't do that with you anymore.” [laughing] I think Kelly wanted to do something different too. I don't think he was-- and I’m not putting words in his mouth, and you could probably ask him, but I don't know. He was a key part of it. If we had lost-- which we did. I mean, we kind of lost the interest from Kelly. I mean, he was getting a little

frustrated too... General frustration.

John Shultz: 

...Trying to wrangle twelve fuckin’ people.

Scott Freeman: 

Yeah, there's that and you know, we were still kids and we weren't really completely mature. We're trying to, but I think it was just a matter of like, “Okay, we really need to pay attention here and do this, or not.” It got to that point. Because, “Where else are we gonna go with this? We're already doing big shows and stuff. So, What? Are we going to continue to do this? Or are we just gonna quit?”

John Shultz:

You were like, what, 29 when you quit? I mean, you were young still. Kelly's a couple years older.

Scott Freeman: 

Yeah... He's a couple years older than me.

John Shultz:

He’s seven years older than me, so you’re older than me, yeah, so he's 53 probably.

Scott Freeman: 

Yeah, probably 53, 54 now. So yeah, that's how that kind of happened. It wasn't necessarily a choice, but it was kind of a choice. And when we tried to bring people back together, like we got the drummer from— why am I brain farting? Let's see, it was Sunny Day Real Estate, I believe. It's either him or the guy from Band of Horses, I don't remember. But like playing drums, like just doing the drum tracks in Dylan's old living room, playing.I think it was Sunny Day Real Estate, but I don’t remember him very well. [laughing] Yeah, probably! But we tried to get-- Dylan really tried to kind of, “Ok, come on guys let’s just finish these songs,” and he was recording stuff with a handheld mic, not too dissimilar to that. And like, he had a keyboard there was a crappy Mac, you know. And we’d go over and we laid some tracks down and stuff, but nothing ever came of it. We have them. I have them on my phone. But nothing.

John Shultz:

I'm smelling an Engine 54 reunion.

Scott Freeman:

I know, that's what everybody says! They say,”Well, you’ve got this stuff. You could just come back.” And I think-- I don't know if even that ship has sailed at this point, right? I mean, maybe 10 years ago. And we did talk about it a couple of times.

John Shultz: 

Now we’re in our 50s. Yeah.

Scott Freeman: 

Yeah. Would I remember all that crap, though?

John Shultz: 

Right. So what did you do after Engine 54?

Scott Freeman 47:02

Well, I traveled for a little while, went to Southeast Asia and putzed around for a few months there, and then came home. I was already kind of working in IT.

John Shultz: 

So no bands, you didn't get in another band?

Scott Freeman: 

Yeah, I did. Actually. I came home. And I think I had probably another year or two lapse and I was hanging around with Lance and some other people and this kid Shadrach was a hairdresser downtown. He was a guitar player. Really raunchy, cool guitar player, you know what I mean? Like, he reminded me of what people were going for in the early ‘90s. As far as like sounds, though, he kind of was like in a stasis state, you know. So, they were playing this kind of southern-- they called it southern death metal. But it was more punk. It was more grunge, with a southern feel to it. And they wanted me to play bass. So I put a super fuzz on my bass and a wah. And I don't remember what bass gear I had at the time, it’s gone now, you know. But I played with them for six months, six-eight months.

John Shultz:

With Johnny Machine playing drums, right?

Scott Freeman: 

Yeah, it was Johnny. And you know, Johnny went on to play-- he’d done some stuff with us before too, like in that transition state, because we thought when Kelly was done and we were all kind of done, we’d try different iterations of things to try to figure something else out. And nothing never gelled completely.

John Shultz: 

You tried Johnny on drums? Because he played everything.

Scott Freeman:

Yeah. So anyway, I was enjoying that. But it was like just dive bars in Centralia and you know, and it was like Shadrach getting so completely blitzed out of his mind that he's like, you know, peeing himself or whatever. But you know, just jammin’ it in front of three people on this barstool. I was like, “Oh, this is fine for now.” And yeah, they did a lot of cocaine. So I was like, “Okay, I can't be around that. I need to have a life that's not prison time or whatever.”

[laughter]

John Shultz: 

It’s not sustainable!

Scott Freeman: 

It’s not! I dropped that like a hot rock. But after that, I just haven't really done anything. You know, I mean, I did home recording and stuff. But yeah, it was a good time. It was a good time in my life but – I'd love to do something else now but it's hard to get people to do it... No, I don't want to jump on a bus and tour anymore. I want to record some songs and maybe play a show. Fine. That's all I can handle.

John Shultz:

Right? You get out and see bands and stuff in Olympia now? Do you ever get out and check out what's happening?

Scott Freeman:

I haven't in a while. It's been a few years. I mean, I stayed pretty, in my own mind somewhat relevant. Like, trying to keep up with what's going on and stuff. But I saw Olympia kind of disassemble itself and fall apart. And shows became less and less and the people that were there were like-- I mean, I think there was a lot more crime, and it was-- I actually, which is really sad, and it's not because I'm 50 something, it's just because in general, we would go downtown in the early ‘90s, or whatever. I mean, all the way up into probably until the 2000s, early 2000s. And it was fairly safe. I mean, you could go without the expectation of you know, being followed or freaked out, or have to fight your way out of situation or whatever. That has changed. I mean, maybe that's my perception. But I don't know, I don't know if you can catch me at one in the morning by the Backstage. It's just a different place.

John Shultz:

Yeah, it is different. Yeah, like back in the mid ‘90s, it was everybody knew each other. Very rarely saw fights.

Scott Freeman:

Yeah, no, I know. Yeah.

John Shultz:

Now you know, we played McCoy's and stuff and it's all stabby down there. I mean, we hadn’t got any problems, but yeah, it's a different vibe. It's definitely a different vibe for sure. I feel like that the scene there's a lot more music now, and no all ages, but there's definitely a lot more bands, and it's kind of a cool scene. Strange sludge metal scene, which is really bizzare.

Scott Freeman: 

Oh, that’s weird.

John Shultz: 

Yeah, in Olympia, I guess. But like Grim Earth and a lot doom metal, it’s interesting. Of course, you got the punks. And then you got us, real bizarre, but it's not the same, not the same. I feel like the ‘90s were definitely the heyday.

Scott Freeman:

We've lost a lot of people, too. We’ve lost a lot of people that could be continuing to do stuff. And I was kind of looking forward to some of the stuff that Vern was putting together.

John Shultz: 

Vern Rumsey of Unwound.

Scott Freeman:

Because he was doing that Red Rum thing. But yeah, I mean, there's a lot of lost musical art from the loss of people from drugs and alcohol.

John Shultz:

Giant Machine. Suicide. Darlene moved to Denver quite a while ago.

Scott Freeman:

There was even a lot of people from our neck of the woods, if you want to call it that, that just--

John Shultz:

Never made it out.

Scott Freeman:

Never made it out.

John Shultz: 

Yeah. I don’t care what city or what scene, it's always the problem, isn’t it? It’s the thing, right? And Guns and Roses are fuckin’-- well, a band in downtown Olympia, it’s got the same deal.

Scott Freeman:

It’s the same problem.

John Shultz:

Why do you think musicians are such fucking--

Scott Freeman: 

Drug addicts and dumbasses?

John Shultz: 

And alcoholics and all that?

Scott Freeman:

I think that it’s just, I mean, if you're truly working on music, it is a raw thing, you know. And it really brings it-- whether you're just jamming on it or whatever, it's still an emotional thing. And when your emotions are open, and you're raw like that, it's a lot easier to numb it. And this happens to be, for whatever reason, there's always been a massive amount of accessibility for heavier drugs in Olympia. Heroin, you know, it’s just been-- you know, and it's funny to think about that too. Because when I was younger, and-- the big Nirvana word. You know, we knew the same groups of people, even though they were older or whatever. But we, my couple of

friends, we tended to stay away from the people we knew were going back to the apartment, downtown or whatever, and shooting heroin. And so we stayed away from it, because we were younger, and we're like, “Oh, dude, no way. I'm skater. I'm gonna I need to keep my body healthy” or whatever, you know, like, I don't-- That was just I never got into that drug, thank god.

John Shultz:

The ones you picked were-- never had--

Scott Freeman:

We had alcohol problems, but you know, meh. And, I mean, it is a thing. I mean, there were people that were drinking a lot.

John Shultz:

I met you at the Eastside Club? And we drank quite a bit. You and me probably kept them in business for a couple days.

Scott Freeman:

Yes, we did... yeah, probably. Absolutely. So, I don't know why. But I think--

John Shultz:

It's not unique to anything. I mean, it's not like, “Olympia's got this strange drug problem now,” it's not unique anywhere.

Scott Freeman:

Right. The difference between going-- and we we hung out a lot in the bars or in the club or whatever. But we didn't-- When we went home or to someone else's house, it was always there. Somebody always had something. If you went to someone's house or whatever, there's always weed, because Evergreen, I mean, my God. But you know, if you needed pills, or mushrooms or whatever, I mean, it was only a few people away.

John Shultz:

Six Degrees of dope.

Scott Freeman:

Oh, right. And a half an hour at most before somebody shows up to the door. I was always blown away by that. Like, “How did you get that? That wasn't here 20 minutes ago.”

John Shultz: 

“I know a guy who knows a guy.”

Scott Freeman: 

“I made a phone call.” “Okay!” So, it's just an unfortunate thing. And I watched it firsthand, with my closer friends too. You know, back away. Because I know I'd be in trouble, the last place I wanted to be, right?

John Shultz: 

Dark, dark things. Um, the seedy underbelly. It really is.

Scott Freeman:

It's everywhere. It's always been everywhere.

John Shultz: 

Doesn’t matter what band you're talking about, how big they are. I don’t think there's been a band in history that hasn’t had some sort of problem with dope or booze. Just being honest, right?

Scott Freeman:

Right. I think that one thing with this project that's interesting to me is like, I've always, even back in the early ‘90s, I was always confused as to why people thought Olympia was a cool place to come. Because, I just thought it was the norm. Like you said, we lived in this tiny little cosmos. So when people would show up– Tinker, they came from like Minneapolis, or whatever. People that I became fast friends with. You know, they came here because of the music or they came here for Evergreen, because they wanted to be in Olympia for the music. Like, they wanted to be part of that music scene and the arts scene, or whatever it was. I just didn’t think anything of it. Even today, I'm like, “What's the big deal?” But I mean, with the International Pop Festival and all that stuff-- I noticed on that piece of paper, they talked about Lady Fest, or whatever. It was so much later, there was so much other stuff that happened. Lady Fest would have never happened without the Pop Festival and all of that stuff those guys were doing.

John Shultz: The “Go Gos” and all that.” 

Scott Freeman: 

Oh, yeah. Yep. Which I think is great, and it was cool. I went to it, and I watched shows and I enjoyed hanging out in the park with friends during that time. But just... later on, thinking about it, I just still don't know what the big deal is. [laughing]

John Shultz:

You came here in what, ‘80 something?

Scott Freeman: 

Yeah.

John Shultz: 

I was born here. It's like, “What the fuck, Evergreen? Just the college down the road? What the fuck? Everybody wants to go there.” And the guys, early-- like Nathan [Paull] and Chris [Pugh] and those guys, that's the gig. I mean, people wanted to come here because of Evergreen. It was different deal, it’s arty, and it's got some weird music going on, and KAOS and Calvin. And that's kind of what started all that deal. I mean, I'm the same way with you. It's fucking Olympia. This is a little shithole, really.

Scott Freeman:

I know! When people came during that summer, and that following year during the Pop

Festival, you know, I heard so much about like rock stars and all this stuff, like stuff that he was doing, you know, and I'm like, “What's a big deal?” Somebody's actually putting some bands together on some records, which is great. Cool. I think the thing with me was I was listening to music that was happening in the Bay Area, or that was happening in Atlanta or you know what I mean? Like something that was already happening with different genres of music. It just so happened that things cropped out of it. I think the Riot Grrrls thing and the coverage that they got, I think was definitely one of the big bigger pushes. I don't think the grunge did anything really for Olympia at all. That was really Seattle.

John Shultz: 

‍

Definitely. People who's claiming Olympia... No, I mean, I’ve lived here for a while. Grunge was a Seattle thing. I think you're right about that, the Pop Festivals and the Riot Grrrl thing. I mean, Rachel from the Need moved here after the festival. They go, “I wanna be here.” It’s like okay, that's interesting. I think K Records and Kill Rock Stars definitely helped that migration of people... let's digress a little bit to something you said earlier about the whole K crowd. You thought it was kind of accepting, and you found that there's little cliques and shit going on, right? ...I talked to other people, and tell me if you think this correct-- I think we know it’s a fact, everything’s of-- Olympia is K Records, right? But that's only about 10% of what was happening.

Scott Freeman:

No, it was a lot more going on. Way more going on. Yeah, that's why I was always surprised about the Riot Grrrl thing. And we were just kind of like, “Whatever. I mean, what are you talking about? They're the same people we just hung out with 10 minutes ago, and they didn't say anything about hating me.” Right? And then they go and scream at me through a microphone. And I'm like, “Well, fuck you.” Right? [Laughing] So that was I think that was perplexing to me, those little cliques that showed up out of that. And I understand now a little bit later, a little bit. They were expressing what they were expressing. Fine. I did that in a different way. But

that was fine. Although it did feel a little hurtful, you know what I mean?

John Shultz:

Sure. A little exclusionary.

Scott Freeman:

It was, because after the fact, once their following followed them, it was pretty impossible to be in communication without watching what you said. And I didn't like that. Because I would get corrected. And I guess that's actually not a bad thing. In some aspects. There's a learning. There was learning for me there too. However, it did feel like I didn't-- It beat me up. Like, “Don't come preach to me. Like, I can understand it. You can talk to me about it. Don't scream it at me. Don't call me you know, a piece of shit guy.”

John Shultz: 

Just because you got a weiner.

Scott Freeman:

Right. Yeah, but I think that there was a little of that. I think that was definitely the K stuff. I mean, it wasn't Calvin, and it wasn't the people working at K. They were wonderful. They were amazing people, I really enjoyed the times that I spent hanging out with them, talking to them. It was everybody else that was around. Their crowd, mostly.

John Shultz:

Talkin’ about like, Bikini Kill and those kinds of bands, yeah?

Scott Freeman:

Yeah, you know, but there was so much more going on.

John Shultz:

Don’t you think that's kind of the kind of the thing? I mean, let’s think about it. Like you know, ska guys were being, “fuck your hardcore.” And punks, and my friends  called me unsavory names because of my-- what do you call it? The way I see music. I’m a little stringent. They called me a music nazi because I'm all about “man, fuck that, I’m not listening to that shit!” I mean, that's kind of what happens, but then again, I'm not gonna go beat you up because you listened to that, or scream into a microphone that you're a fucking asshole... I'm like, “Hey, I'm not doing that. But let's talk it out.”

Scott Freeman:

I mean, I think that was the one saving grace. I think that that made things more comfortable in Olympia was you could play something and people would show up, be curious, and they wouldn't give you shit. They wouldn't call you crappy. If they did, they were wasted and you could just give them a hug because you picked them up off the ground or whatever, you know.

John Shultz: 

Or you could just push ‘em over. [laughing]

Scott Freeman: 

Yeah, “You suck!” [laughing] But I liked the fact that people were fairly honest. You know, we'd have people come and see a show and go, “Well, we don't really like ska music, but we enjoyed coming out and watching.” And I was like-- it was weird. “This is weird.”

John Shultz: 

Well, I mean, I've told you since the beginning, I was never a huge ska guy. Yeah, I appreciate it. You know, and there's definitely some I can listen to, you know, and I saw you guys a few times. It was always a good time. You know, just like, Let's Go Bowling. I went to go Rock Candy with Joe who I worked with at the magazine as a photographer, and he went up to interview and I was taking pictures. A fuckin’ great show, great shows. It's still not my jam, but I'm not gonna be like, “You like ska, fuck you.” Why do that shit? Because I like reggae. Not that much of a difference. But I wouldn’t sit around listening to reggae all day long either. You know? [I’m] A

little bit more accepting, anyway, of people, [inaudible]. Don’t you think you kind of have to be? In a small place like this, you ain’t got much of a choice. If you're in fucking LA or New York, you could completely piss off the entire scene and never have to see it. Here, it's so small.

Scott Freeman:

I think you have to kind of watch your P's and Q's and be courteous. Which is a good thing. Because our general nature is to coalesce into little groups and cliques, and then bad mouthing something that you may or may not have any idea about. And that was what was nice about Olympia during that time, especially during when-- why am I blanking on his name? From the Kill Rock Stars? Slim [Moon]. I talked to him not that long ago. Yeah, his whole thing, like that summer, essentially, whatever year that was-- I saw so many groups from all over the place come to Olympia. And I think everybody was just enjoying the fact that there was a variety of things happening. Even though eventually it became kind of exclusive.

John Shultz:

As a thing does, that is usually what happens.

Scott Freeman:

And if people didn't like to go see a band, they wouldn't go. You can talk to him about it later. Like, “Well, how’d that show go?” Like, “Oh, that was cool. Yeah, I didn't want to go see it, I'm not into that.” “Okay.” You know?

John Shultz:

Yeah. So after Engine 54 broke up, why'd you stick around Olympia?

Scott Freeman:

Well, interestingly enough, I actually packed my stuff up with my then girlfriend, and we traveled a bit. And when we came home, I had just finished certifications for IT stuff. And we thought that we were going to be in the Seattle area. So we actually moved halfway, we lived in an apartment in Tacoma. And then I ended up getting a job down here. And then we ended up like breaking up in Tacoma and moving down here, and living at her dad's house for a little while, it was empty.

John Shultz: 

And then you're stuck here.

Scott Freeman: 

Yeah. And I worked the same job for 23 years and I loved every minute of it, but I just found my calling in that space there.

John Shultz: 

And you work with Ryan Bombardi?

Scott Freeman:

I do, yeah, I hired him.

John Shultz:

It’s still a small music scene.

Scott Freeman:

I know. It is. It really is. And we still stay connected. And you know, and we've had the sad progression of people passing like. You know, trying to help people who are still struggling with that stuff. So we lost Mike [Dees]  and we lost Vern [Rumsey]. So many others. Johnny. It's harder getting older.

John Shultz:

 ... and Matt.

Scott Freeman: 

Yep, that's right. God. It's hard to grow older here and watch people disappear.

John Shultz: 

It can happen anywhere though, really.

Scott Freeman:

 It does. And it's just a realization of like, okay--

John Shultz:

The older we get, no one here gets out of here alive.

Scott Freeman: 

No, that's true. Is it the water?

John Shultz: 

We put it in the water. Yeah. Some people put bad stuff in the water, yeah.

Scott Freeman: 

I think I could say that I have a unique perspective playing in a different genre of music in Olympia at the time. But quite honestly, we weren't much different than anybody else. We were still Olympians... People just playing different chords, singing different songs. So that's why-- like Shelley, talking about other bands, Gene Pool, Lifeguards stuff, like “we were just good.” We all had camaraderie, you know? I think this is a cool project. I just hope that we-- I think with the combination of the folks that you're interviewing and all of that, getting the other side of the

story, I think, is important in this. I think it's just strange as I'm sitting here doing this, about this. I mean, in general, right?

John Shultz: 

Why is that?

Scott Freeman: 

Well, just because we're just all friends… for me, this is more of a reconnection thing with other people that I haven't seen or talked to in a while, you know?

John Shultz:

Sure. Yeah. Me too. Yeah.

Scott Freeman:

So, I mean, it's good that it's documenting what went on in Olympia. But again, it's still a little odd to me.

John Shultz: 

You lived it, you were there. We were in Olympia, we take it for granted.

Scott Freeman:

Like, I went down to the Fifth Ave sandwich shop, which I love. Absolutely adore them. Fourth on Fifth [sic], however they changed from their mom's thing. And, you know, I go by the Pear Street house to go home. And there's a freaking sign out there now. Like, really? It says pair it says that-- What was his address-- four two four... whatever it was, who knows... Like we care?, like we don't care? Like everybody else outside knows it. We don't-- whatever. Yeah, there's a sign up there, half a block up. It's like, “This is the Pear Street House right here.” Like, why is that

there?

John Shultz: 

Wow. I drive by that all the time and never noticed.

Scott Freeman:

Yeah, check it out. Red Arrow.

John Shultz: 

Is it like a sandwich board or something?

Scott Freeman: 

Yeah, it's just like a little- almost like a realtor. So like, stuck in the

ground, and the bare minimum, just says--

John Shultz:

That’s probably why, I thought it was a realty sign.

Scott Freeman:

And I think that-- those feelings continually come up when I see something like that. Or when I go to Seattle, and there's this entire-- at the music experience. Well, MoPOP now, right. So we took the kids up there. I have two 16 year old twins from my relationship with my partner and then my 14 year old. We went to MoPOP and I wanted to see some of the studio equipment that was in there from like some early recordings, Jimi Hendrix stuff, because they change that stuff out every once in a while. But there's a whole section in there of Nirvana. And then there's a centerpiece section underneath the big tower of guitars of the Riot Grrrls and stuff. And it's all this Olympia--

John Shultz: 

Donna Dresch’s bass...

Scott Freeman: 

Yes, I'm like, “What?!” I'm still continually perplexed by it. But it must mean something to a lot of people. And so I think this is good, I think it's a cool thing to do. And just being part of that whole scene and contributing just because we wanted to have fun and make some music and make people dance. I think that we’ll be remembered for that by folks. I mean we continually get-- people are still buying off of you know...

John Shultz: 

Discogs?

Scott Freeman: 

Yeah, whatever. You know there's still people, and it pays for coffee, you know? So I'm glad that people continue to enjoy that. And yeah, I don't really know what else to say. I'm never going to be involved in anything like that again, it's over, it's done.

John Shultz:

No one is. That's over. What happens now is not going to be as cool and it's going to be different. Maybe it's cool, but it's gonna be different, and that was a unique situation, right?

Scott Freeman:

I never felt bad. I mean, I never felt like I missed something. I never felt like “oh, well, gee, Soundgarden is huge,” or Nirvana. I didn't care, I thought “good for them. That's cool.” Like Soundgarden deserves every every Kudo. Yeah I don't know.

John Shultz: 

Bleach ruled.

Scott Freeman: 

Bleach was amazing. I loved-- I think the hardest-- one of those, it’s not really related to this-- I had a little Datsun BT 10 and in the trunk, I would go to shows I’d get like-- I’d drive to Seattle all the time. And when we go to all these shows, and I’d pick up the little 45s and vinyls, I’d just buy them. It was a couple more bucks and I purchased it, or eventually people were giving me things, you know. And it went into this crate in the back of my Datsun. Most of it never came out. A lot of it just sat in there. And then it got knocked over and you know Datsuns, like the back folds down and 45s and shit were sliding into the seat, and landed stepping on and cracking like an Unwound thing, right? I had no idea like-- I got rid of the car, and I probably just gave the crate away and stuff. And I just didn't care. That was my mentality. I was here and I was in the now and I was doing this thing and you know, I'd pull things out that I liked and I’d bring them in, but then I would give it away or it’d just go back in the car onto the floor because I'd go to give it to somebody and forget. So I think the only regret I have now is the fact that I had a blue Floyd the Barber 45. Wow. And I had a- Kurt, he’d do these little origami birds or whatever, he'd like draw shit on ‘em. And I had a couple of them that he’d left at the Mushroom House. He was doing this, and I shoved them in the record. And I had no idea. And there's-- I’d watch like, what is... Tony Hawk's kid is dating his daughter, and they sold like one of the-- ‘cos Kurt used to paint and shit. He painted a skateboard. Like the Grim Reaper or something. I don't remember what it

was. Oh, it was Maiden, that’s right. Yeah. Because he had a bunch-- [inaudible]. And so I think to myself, like, “Oh my God. What if I had just actually paid attention for two seconds, and started saving those things?”

John Shultz:

You don’t think about it at the time... I mean, if you knew how much 1950s and ‘60s cars gonna be worth now, would anybody have sold one?

Scott Freeman:

Yeah, that’s true, you don’t, you don't. But to be here and to be involved and go to these house parties where they get memorabilia and stuff that you just-- “oh, that's neat.”

John Shultz:

Yeah. I've always been a collector. I mean, I've got all the old Axis magazines now. And the whole big thing of flyers. I mean, there's a bunch of year Engine 54 stuff in there. I kept some stuff, you know, it literally was in boxes for 20 fucking years and I forgot I had it. When I cleaned this place out, I was like, “Oh, fuck, there they are! Oh, forget about this. Wow.” And that just happened to be about the same time this project started. Flyers! ...you just don't think about it, right?

Scott Freeman:

Everything is just rushing to the brain! Ry did a really good job collecting shit. He has a lot of stuff.

John Shultz: 

Bins.

Scott Freeman: 

Yeah, it's insane. He's kind of like that, you know?

John Shultz:

Yeah. He's like, “I don’t know what to fuckin’ do with ‘em.” Well, if you got doubles, you can give ‘em to me.

Scott Freeman:

Y’know, we talked the other day about-- maybe he was thinking about starting to sell some of that stuff. Because what are you gonna do with it?

John Shultz:

Well, yeah.

Scott Freeman:

Because some of that stuff is pretty collectible, you know?

John Shultz:

Yeah. I mean, he's got like, a signed setlist with a note from Dave Grohl, from some show in Seattle they played with them. It's like, Are you fucking kidding me? Yeah, I mean, handwritten.

Scott Freeman:

Oh yeah, yeah. A setlist from like the Dome show or whatever.

John Shultz:

Yeah, people love that shit. You know, it's memorabilia. It’s something that-- like I said, that time has passed.

Scott Freeman:

And I'm just such dummy... There was a okay hotel show with Mudhoney and I loved that, that was a great show. That place was such-- it was tiny as shit in there, and I grabbed a set list off of the stage and they were like, “That's cool.” You know, take it, it’s the end of the show. So I don't know, six months later or something, I tell somebody that I have this set list you know, like “oh yeah, this Mudhoney setlist, oh, here it is in the back of the car!” Right? “What is this?” “Oh, that was Mudhoney, blah blah blah.” “Oh, I love them. Can I have this?” “Sure.”

[Laughter]

John Shultz: 

You gotta hunt them down. “Motherfucker, you know what?!”

Scott Freeman: 

How much of that shit have I given away?

John Shultz:

But you were there, you lived it, y’know? What do you do?

John Shultz: 

I'm surprised like, you know, to talk to some people-- like, Ryan kept a lot of stuff. But most of those band guys, they didn't. It was shit.

Scott Freeman:

Vern did, because he didn't clean anything. It’s just buried in a pile of shit...

John Shultz:

Pretty interesting. But it was a time. It was a time.

Scott Freeman:

I have in my mind these different segments of Olympia. The there's the East Coast contingent of people. Especially like, there's such a huge amount of people in the ‘93, ‘94 or even closer then, ‘95 that I met coming from like Wisconsin, and Minneapolis and all these different kinds of--

John Shultz: 

New Hampshire.

Scott Freeman: 

Yeah, like, and it wasn't necessarily school. Some of it was school, but they were just really-- they’re bringing their band. Their whole band’s coming here. And then they end up at like-- you're at Lucky Seven House, you’d meet this whole group of five dudes that are like, “Oh, we're living here now.” Like why? “We're gonna make it big in Olympia.” Cool.

John Shultz: 

I had a couple friends move, one from Chicago. So you heard Super Fuzz Big Muff? “I gotta get the fuck out there.” “Well, why did you come to Olympia? They're right there in Seattle.” But who knows? I don't know.

Scott Freeman:

Why? I mean, I understand that we had the K thing and all of that. Why not Tacoma? I mean, I ask these questions sometimes. Like, there is killer music in Tacoma.

John Shultz:

Seaweed? Seaweed, the most underrated band that was around here, I think.

Scott Freeman:

One of my favorite groups.

John Shultz: 

Despise was fucking great. Yeah, there's quite a few bands from Tacoma. But yeah, not

as much as Seattle...

Scott Freeman:

I think it probably is credited to the fact that, like I said, the cauldron, Olympia- the ingredients are already mixed in. Right? We had the venues because we had the people who were interested in actually doing that art and making spaces available. I mean, there was-- what was that place in Tacoma? It was called Community World Theater. And then there was a couple of other venues that were-- and they were always packed.

John Shultz:

People’d just come up probably starving for music.

Scott Freeman:

They were, right. They were coming to Olympia or they're going to Seattle. And, you know, put on a show at Evergreen with Alice in Chains and pack pretty decent sized small arena, essentially. I mean, how weird is that? For a population our size, right?

John Shultz:

Yeah. I was at that show? Pretty wild.

Scott Freeman:

So I guess I think it's pretty cool. We’ve been blessed to have what we have. And I think that's what makes Olympia unique.

Edited by Markly Morrison

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