John Shultz 

Hey, everybody ready? This is John Shultz for the Olympia Indie Music [History] Project, December 7, 2022. I'm here with Nathan Paull and Chris Pugh from various bands.

‍

Nathan Paull 

Various.

‍

John Shultz 

[laughs] Various. So let's start with where you guys are from. You weren't born in Olympia, were you?

‍

Nathan Paull 

No, no, no, I was born in Seattle. My parents moved me down here in ‘67, when I was four years old. I grew up here in Olympia going to North Thurston public school district schools and Thurston County Off Campus School.

‍

Chris Pugh 

You went to North Thurston?

‍

Nathan Paull 

I went to North Thurston for two years.

‍

Chris Pugh 

Not Oly [Olympia School District]?

‍

Nathan Paull 

No, no I lived out the South Bay [South Bay Road] direction. One of those people.

‍

Chris Pugh 

So North Thurston before off-campus?

‍

Nathan Paull 

Before Off Campus. Actually freshman and sophomore year before I got sick of regular high school and decided to get it over with and go to an alternative school and get my credits over and done with as quickly as possible. Then when I saw that our diplomas were mimeographed, and the purple ink still hadn't dried on them, that's when I said, You know, I'm just gonna go get my GED from OTC [Olympia technical college later known as SPSCC].

‍

Chris Pugh 

I had to do that.

‍

Nathan Paull 

I mean OTC I mean SPSCC [South Puget Sound Community College] M-I-C-K-Y M-O-U-S-E.

‍

Chris Pugh 

I had a similar experience. 

‍

John Shultz 

You from Olympia?

‍

Chris Pugh 

No, I'm from the greater Seattle area. [laughter]

‍

Schultz 

When did you move to Olympia? And why did you move to Olympia?

‍

Nathan Paull 

He means Bellevue probably.

‍

Chris Pugh 

No, Bellevue is not the great- that's a whole different city.

‍

Nathan Paull 

I know what side I'm from. I don't know about you.

‍

Chris Pugh 

Where were we? 

‍

Schultz

Why’d you move to Olympia? When and why?

‍

Chris Pugh

Well, first, let's just say after being born in the greater Seattle area, there was some moving around. I can't tell you exactly where because there was a lot of it. But, I ended up in Olympia for the first time in ‘71. 

‍

Nathan Paull

Yeah, right around there. 

‍

Chris Pugh

You can't tell by looking, but his memory’s better than mine. [laughter] So yeah, I guess ‘71 came here. My dad was going to Evergreen and maybe working there too, at the same time. So, our parents knew each other when we were kids. And-

‍

Nathan Paull

First year Evergreen was open. Yeah, right.

‍

Chris Pugh

Yeah, right, right. There was actually an alternative school at the college the first year it was open, wasn't there?

‍

Nathan Paull

Founding faculty members. 

‍

Schultz

Oh.

‍

Nathan Paull

Why, thank you. Don’t mind if I do.

‍

Chris Pugh

Your cup runneth over.

‍

Schultz

So you guys met when you were pretty young then?

‍

Chris Pugh

Nine. Eight, 9? I was 9 and Nathan was 8.

‍

Nathan Paull

Oh yeah, I remember this story. We met at the Olympia Community Center, which is now long since demolished.

‍

Schultz

That the one down on 4th Ave?

‍

Nathan Paull

Yeah, going up the hill.

‍

Chris Pugh

Is this where the question of, “Are you a boy or a girl?”

‍

Paul

Exactly. 

‍

Chris Pugh

I think I remember that.

‍

Nathan Paull

Yes you do.

‍

Chris Pugh

You know kids had long hair back- we were hippie children.

‍

Nathan Paull

My brother and I did, that's for sure. And the question came up, I think it was Chris that asked me the question and said, “Are you a boy or girl?” And I said, “Come on into the bathroom and I'll show you.”

‍

Chris Pugh

Yeah

‍

Nathan Paull

Yep.

‍

Chris Pugh

We've been friends ever since

‍

Nathan Paull

Ever since. Apparently, he liked what he saw.

‍

John Shultz  03:49

When did you guys decide to get into music?

‍

Nathan Paull

Whoa. Well, Chris' family moved off to Yamhill, Oregon or some such hippie stuff like that. I can't remember. They moved away and then Chris resurfaced at Thurston County Off Campus School about 1980.

‍

Chris Pugh

No, earlier.

‍

Nathan Paull

He was going to Off Campus before I was.

‍

Chris Pugh 

I ended up back in Olympia in the mid ‘70s. I was in Portland in ‘77, and I ended up in Olympia in ‘77. I was living down in Portland. My parents were divorced. I was living with my dad in the Portland area and in Portland, going to a hippie alternative school. A great little K through 12 inner city school.

‍

Nathan Paull

Is that when you got into music?

‍

Chris Pugh

It's a good question.

‍

Nathan Paull

Playing music?

‍

Chris Pugh

Well, I was into listening. I was a fan, I had at that point even heard the Patti Smith Group. Some older people who we bought weed from played the Ramones for us.

‍

Nathan Paull

Oh, no way.

‍

Chris Pugh

Stuff like this and we were like, “What the hell?”

‍

John Shultz

So you were into punk rock right away then?

‍

Chris Pugh

Well, you know, simultaneously. I liked it. I also liked Van Halen.

‍

Nathan Paull

[gasps]

‍

Chris Pugh

I went from being hard rock to hearing some punk rock and just having it blow my mind. Not just punk rock, you know, bands came around in the ‘80s-

‍

Nathan Paull

Basically, the same thing happened to me. My parents were hippies and brought home all the latest records and whatever Rolling Stone said was the latest greatest whatever. My dad went to the The Music Bar at South Sound Center and brought every single album home except for that one Ted Nugent and the Amboy Dukes album that he opened up, listened to it once and said, “What is this crap?” and shoved it back in the sleeve and stuck it on the shelf. They were totally into music. I grew up listening to all kinds of music. In the ‘70s growing up, as a younger, junior high, high schooler, I was going to see all the arena rock. Styx, Blue Oyster Cult-

‍

Chris Pugh

We went and saw The Who and the Clash together.

‍

Nathan Paull

Thin Lizzy and all these bands live. When I ran into Chris again, and he was going to Off Campus, he was into these bands like, The Clash, The B-52s, the Sex Pistols, The Dead Kennedys, and the Ramones and I never looked back. That was it. It was a done deal. I was like, Screw all of this arena trash. And yeah, we decided, well, actually, Chris and Ian decided-

‍

Chris Pugh

We’re missing one little part though. Before Pet Products started, I'd actually been living in Port Townsend where my parents bought a music store. And at the music store, I started taking guitar lessons.

‍

Schultz

Instruments or records?

‍

Chris Pugh

Instruments. A musical instrument store. Living in Port Townsend, ‘78 or so, I also started to discover some bands that weren't hard rock. It's not like I wasn't into mainstream- what was considered now, classic rock probably. But, there's this other stuff inching its way in. Some kids I knew in high school were into it. I moved back to Seattle, right out of high school for one year. Started washing dishes at a restaurant. Some friends of mine, we all got a house up there. At some point, I got fired. 

‍

Nathan Paull

No. 

‍

Chris Pugh

So here's the deal. 

‍

Nathan Paull

No.

‍

Chris Pugh

The guy who is the manager of the restaurant, accused me of stealing from the cash register or something. 

‍

Nathan Paull

[laughter] 

‍

Chris Pugh

But here's the thing, and this is in retrospect, I didn't realize this at the time. I went into the office with the owner and the guy who is the manager. And the manager was just tweaking on fucking coke probably. I just remember him chewing and doing all kinds of fidgety stuff where he was geeking out.

‍

Nathan Paull

Eating his own face basically.

‍

Chris Pugh

When I was 18, I didn't know what somebody geeking on coke looked like. I thought, That's weird. It wasn’t until years later that I realized the guy who'd accused me of robbing the place had most certainly robbed the place, and had blamed it on the dishwasher, prep cook, busboy - me - in order to save his own ass. Regardless, I was fired.

‍

Nathan Paull

Low man on the screwing pole.

‍

Chris Pugh

Then I was out of a job. I was like, I don't really like washing dishes and cleaning up dead rats from underneath the bussing tub anyway, so I'm moving back to Olympia to go to Evergreen State College.

‍

Nathan Paull

Be something. Make something out of myself.

‍

Chris Pugh 

So, that is where we all reconnected. When I moved back, somehow- maybe you can take it from here.

‍

Nathan Paull

When you move back? You were- I thought you were going Off Campus? You went- you were going to Evergreen at that point?

‍

Chris Pugh

Off Campus was before. Off Campus is before Port Townsend.

‍

Nathan Paull

Okay.

‍

Chris Pugh

We met up at Off Campus and we were hanging out and stuff, but the band, of course, did not start until: a year of high school in Port Townsend and a year of dishwashing and robbing restaurants in Seattle. 

‍

Nathan Paull

You swung-

‍

Chris Pugh

and then by 1979, early 19-

‍

Both

80-

‍

Chris Pugh

I was back here.

‍

Nathan Paull

I was going to Off Campus School and ran into Ian McKinnon on the front porch. Little hippie kid playing guitar like nobody's business. He had a friend by the name of Chris Chris Pugh and they knew each other through some other hippie parents that were friends of other hippie parents and one thing led to another there and said, “We need to start a band and you're gonna play the bass. We need to find a drummer. Where can we find a drummer?”

‍

Chris Pugh

Yep. So that was the beginning that.

‍

Nathan Paull

That was the beginning of that.

‍

Chris Pugh

You told the story of how we got Tom Shoblom to be our drummer. 

‍

Nathan Paull

We had a classmate named Claire Racy who is this lovely lady, who had this boyfriend who was older, old man at the time, really. I mean, he was five years older than us-

‍

Chris Pugh

He had a beard.

‍

Nathan Paull

23, he had a beard and a mustache of all things-

‍

Chris Pugh 

He was not punk rock at all-

‍

Nathan Paull

He was not punk rock at all.

‍

Chris Pugh

was the most townie-

‍

Nathan Paull

He is such an Oly [Olympia] kid-

‍

Chris Pugh 

-bell-bottom wearing, bearded-

‍

Paul

He’s a serious, original, old school Olympian. He would arrive to pick up Claire Racy from school every day and- a car-

‍

Chris Pugh

He had a car-

‍

Nathan Paull

He had a car-

‍

Chris Pugh

He could buy beer-

‍

Nathan Paull

Not only did he have a car and he could buy beer, he was over- he was 23 and he had a drum kit. Claire said, “Oh, Tom plays the drums. He's a really good drummer, he's got a drum kit.” But, turns out, unfortunately, he really liked the Grateful Dead. So we didn't really hold that against him.

‍

Chris Pugh

We tried to cure him from that.

‍

Nathan Paull

We tried to cure him from that.

‍

Chris Pugh  11:12

I think we should discuss for a second Off Campus School, because I think it has cultural relevance to the band, to the people we are and the-

‍

Nathan Paull

I explained to him about David Chamberlain

‍

Chris Pugh

-the band

‍

Nathan Paull

being our music teacher at the time.

‍

Chris Pugh

Also the fact that Off Campus School was- I mean- it was- you know- there were people there who were gay. Teachers.

‍

Nathan Paull

Teachers.

‍

Chris Pugh

It was not just that, but it was also a progressive- a bit radical in its approach. I know that that had an effect on all of us. 

‍

Nathan Paull

It sure did.

‍

Chris Pugh

It really did influence where we were coming from. In that school, there was not homophobia and misogyny-

‍

Nathan Paull

No, none of that.

‍

Chris Pugh

-and racism wasn't thriving…

‍

Nathan Paull

and that's a large reason why-

‍

Nathan Paull

I wanted to get out of mainstream North Thurston public schools and get on with my education because I was tired of going to school with those kinds of people. Really. Seriously. And I knew that that didn't exist at Off Campus. Everybody that was at Off Campus had either been suspended, or what do they call it, expelled from every other place.

‍

Chris Pugh

Lot of bad kids there, but you know-

‍

Nathan Paull

If you- that was basically your last stop. This is your last chance to get your education dealt with and get on with your life. They didn't put up with a whole lot there but they were super progressive and open about everything else. It's like, you're here for a reason, so let's do it. People from all walks of life and all backgrounds were there. Kids and the people that were our teachers.

‍

Chris Pugh

Yeah, the staff and the- yep. I think that definitely, in our later band life that was sort of a foundation of where we were coming from, also. As far as that aspect of being- that there was a, not an overt, but an underlying political sort of ideology I think formed at the school and it carried through.

‍

John Shultz  13:18

Let me ask you this. Do you think, when you guys started playing instruments, do you think you were drawn to punk rock because you didn't have to be a virtuoso? You didn't have to be a fucking Eddie Van Halen. You could be a three-chord- fucking smoke a bunch of dope and pound on chords. You know what I mean? Is that kind of a draw as well? You realize, Wait a minute, I don't have to be Jimmy Paige to be in a band, right? What do you guys even think about that?

‍

Nathan Paull

I didn't really even think about that. We just played to the level of our ability at the time and you do anything long enough you get good at it, or you don't. One of the two. Everybody had to start somewhere. Ours was some pretty basic stuff, but I had two friends that were in this band that were both really good guitar players pretty much out of the box. Our drummer was a great drummer. 

‍

Schultz

Tom?

‍

Nathan Paull

Yeah, so-

‍

Chris Pugh

Well, the thing is, we were actually to some degree musicians already. Me and Ian both knew how to play guitar relatively well. We'd taken lessons and we'd practiced. The thing is we're coming from the older school approach to begin with. A lot of what we were listening to were people playing guitar solos for years. Now, I can remember hearing, in ‘79, hearing the B-52s for the first time and being like, What the fuck? It kind of blew my mind. The guy only had four strings on his Mosrite. Two of them were taken out from the middle, and his solos just went, “Duh, duh dunt.” There was like three notes in them. Musically what they were doing with their singing and stuff- I was like, This is like about the farthest thing from Zeppelin, The Who, or anything that I have ever heard in my life. But it was- but I loved it. So I do think I thought for a minute, I could do this. I could embrace this and I like where they're going with this. I don't have to play a bunch of lead guitar parts.

‍

Nathan Paull

Ian could and was more than willing to.

‍

Chris Pugh

And he did. We both did. It's not like we never played lead guitar solos. But, I definitely think that there was a certain aesthetic that we brought from hearing punk rock, new wave bands. They definitely influenced where we were going. We weren't going to go in the direction of some of the stuff we'd been listening to. I don't think any of us had any interest in that. But, it's not like those influences weren't there at all. We still played loud bar chords, which is in common to a lot of kinds of music.

‍

Nathan Paull

And I can admit it, I still like Rush to this day. I’ve got a lot of-

‍

Chris Pugh

And there's nothing wrong with that.

‍

Nathan Paull

No, it's okay-

‍

Chris Pugh

My name is Nathan Paull and- 

‍

Nathan Paull

And I'm a reformed-

‍

Chris Pugh

I like Rush.

‍

Nathan Paull

and I like Rush. I really, really- Geddy Lee is a fabulous bass player.

‍

Chris Pugh

Nice guy too. And he's Canadian.

‍

Nathan Paull

They're super nice guys.-

‍

Chris Pugh

What’s not nice? They’re nice people.

‍

Nathan Paull

I'm half Canadian, so I understand. Just the bottom half, not the top half. But, I understand completely where they're coming from. Canada.

‍

Chris Pugh

[singing] Oh, Canada.

‍

Nathan Paull

But influence wise, yeah, I didn't have to play millions of bass notes, but I sure did appreciate millions of bass notes. I mean, Millions of Bugs, which were nicknamed millions of bass notes, because the bass player was not only the singer and wrote a lot of the songs but he was basically a lead bass player. They already had a guitar player that did play lead guitar solos that were super short and super catchy. They were a great dance band. I was just as much influenced by a band like that, that was homegrown here in Olympia, as all the old arena rock that I used to listen to. 

‍

Chris Pugh

Totally.

‍

John Shultz  17:26

That's something I wanted to bring up. Your guys's first band was Pet Products-

‍

Both

Yeah.

‍

Schultz

There you go. So other bands you played with influenced you as well, right? 

‍

Nathan Paull

Oh, yeah.

‍

Schultz

Millions of Bugs?

‍

Nathan Paull

Millions of Bugs. Who else was around at the time? Oh, the Wimps. Gary Allen May. Some of the bands that were here playing in Olympia at the time.

‍

John Shultz

What was your first show? Do you remember your first show?

‍

Nathan Paull 

Yeah, it was-

‍

Chris Pugh

Detention? With-

‍

Nathan Paull

No. It was at the Gnu Deli which is now- what is the name of that fancy seafood restaurant? 

‍

Schultz

Anthony’s?

‍

Nathan Paull

No, no, not Anthony's. Gardener’s. Gardener’s Restaurant. One year only, when it first opened, it was called the Gnu Deli, G-N-U Deli. Fancy schmancy hippie food, still had the-

‍

Chris Pugh

Yeah. Gary worked there, right? And got us a gig?

‍

Nathan Paull

I think it was Gary, Gary Allen May. They had an open mic night and they called up and they were like, “Hey, open mic night’s calling from the Gnu Deli, and we need a name. What are you guys calling yourselves?” House we’re living in at the time had a flea control problem, definitely. We had just flea-bombed the house and grabbed a box. We didn't know what to call ourselves. Grabbed the box, and it said Zodiac Pet Products on it. So Zodiac Pet Products it was. We went and played that gig at Gnu Deli. There were a couple other bands. I think the Breadwinners actually played that gig. That was Timothy Brock, who went on to be a famous composer and orchestral conductor to this day, I'm pretty sure. Breadwinners and Millions of Bugs played and it was a good time. We ended up getting on bills with them around town up at Captain Coyotes, which was called Popeyes at the time, and various parties at the dorms at Evergreen and backyard parties and here and there and everywhere. Some battle of the bands up in Port Townsend. We ended up playing for a year, year and a half, all over the place up and down the greater Puget Sound area as it were.

‍

Chris Pugh

Yeah. That sounds about right.

‍

John Shultz

Did you ever do any recording? Ever put out an album or anything?

‍

Nathan Paull

Not yet.

‍

Chris Pugh

We're looking into that.

‍

Nathan Paull

We did- Chris's mom had a friend that ran a recording studio here in town and she hit him up and said, “Hey, you remember when you stayed with me when you were a starving student, and you were going to Evergreen and I gave you a place to live for a little while? Well, my son has a band now and they really need a demo tape. Would you record them please, as a favor?” Well, it was West Sound Studio. It was a 24 track studio. Evergreen didn't even have a 16 track studio at that point. Evergreen had a four or an eight track studio, period, in 1981. Yeah, so getting to go into this guy's 24 track studio that was downtown, just off of Legion Way right behind the old Jack in the Box area there. Getting to go into that studio, in 1981, and record on that fat of some recording tape was pretty over the top. We only got to record two songs. We didn't even have the money to buy the reel of tape. So, we ended up getting some cassettes out of the deal. So, those are our first two big hit songs that didn't make us any money. All of this has been stored for posterity and will duly be being released on our hit album coming out on Kill Rock Stars records soon. Supposedly.

‍

Chris Pugh

We did sign the contract, but I don't know what-

‍

Nathan Paull

What the progress is on this project.

‍

Chris Pugh

The thing is we have a fair amount of recorded material.  Most of it’s not in great shape. A lot of it wasn't stored properly. We didn't really anticipate actually putting out anything-

‍

Nathan Paull

Ever.

‍

Chris Pugh

A lot of it's not of great quality. We'll see. We sent Kill Rock Stars everything we have. Slim Moon had approached us about doing it. He was gonna do some archival releases of old Olympia bands. I did send them what we have, and-

‍

Nathan Paull

We did sign a contract. 

‍

Chris Pugh

I haven't heard back.

‍

Schultz

So, stay tuned?

‍

Nathan Paull

Stay tuned is right, I mean- 

‍

Chris Pugh

Literally, it may not be good enough to release. They'll have to decide. I listened to some. it really depends on what- archival recordings many times are not of superior quality. Now there is something in the contract that I do remember reading that says something about provide-  it says something about the quality. It should be releasable- of a nature that would be- we'll see. I haven’t even talked to them since I sent it.

‍

Nathan Paull

I think there's actually enough in there. We're talking about one LP, maybe six or 12 songs at the most. There's definitely enough stuff in there between what we did in the 24 track studio-

‍

Chris Pugh

We sent them like 20 songs right?

‍

Nathan Paull

We did and-

‍

Chris Pugh

So we'll see. Anyway-

‍

Nathan Paull

Yes.

‍

Chris Pugh

That could happen.

‍

Nathan Paull

We've never had an official release, but there is definitely a complete Pet Products CD [23:12 - unclear]. Including the 24 track stuff, including stuff that was recorded at the eight track/four track at Evergreen-

‍

Chris Pugh

Randomly in the rehearsal room. All kinds of bits and pieces.

‍

Nathan Paull

I think there's enough of decent quality that if they really feel like it-

‍

Chris Pugh

Well I hope you’re right because I want a goddamn record out.

‍

Nathan Paull

Well yeah, me too. And we get half the proceeds.

‍

Chris Pugh

Do we?

‍

Nathan Paull

Yeah, we do. We get 50% of the sales, which is an insane deal. So when those 12 albums get sold.

‍

Chris Pugh

We get half.

‍

Nathan Paull

We get half of the $9.99 that each one will be going for.

‍

Chris Pugh

Do you think we’ll be on Spotify?

‍

Nathan Paull
We’ll be at Columbia House Records and Tapes, Chris. You know thirty-six 8-minute tapes for a penny? That whole deal. That's us at this point. Yeah, that's what where we'll be.

‍

Chris Pugh

Looking forward to that. 

‍

Nathan Paull

Spotify. Well there is- if there can be a Young Pioneers channel on Spotify, then there can be a Pet Product channel on Spotify. 

‍

Chris Pugh

I wonder if we can tour on it.

‍

Nathan Paull

We could totally tour on it. We'll get a-

‍

Chris Pugh

With Tom-

‍

Nathan Paull

We’ll get a hologram.

‍

Chris Pugh 

Tom can probably get a discount on a lot of our flights, maybe. Over to-

‍

[laughter]

‍

Nathan Paull

Well he is go tone foot in the you know what, so-

‍

Chris Pugh

I'm assuming he wouldn't want to take full advantage of his status on the road. Along the road is a lot of the places you get the discounts. I know hotels offer them, I remember.

‍

Nathan Paull

He's cornered the market on adult diapers.

‍

Chris Pugh

Next question. 

‍

John Shultz  24:43

Yeah, yeah, bring it back. 

‍

Nathan Paull

I digress.

‍

Schultz

There wasn't a whole lot of clubs back then to play, were there? 

‍

Chris Pugh

No.

‍

Nathan Paull

There weren't any. We ended up playing at Popeye's only because- I have no idea why.

‍

Chris Pugh

We weren’t old enough. I wasn't 21 yet. One of us- only Tom was old enough.

‍

Nathan Paull

Tom was the only one- He was 23 and, hilariously enough, when we played at Popeye's, Ian's ID was fake. He wasn't even old enough to be with us in the designated non-drinking area. You have to be at least 18, he was 17. Liar. Little liar with fakie fakie ID boy. Popeyes was one of the only actual places in town that really- taverns in town or bars or nightclubs or whatever that actually had live music.

‍

Chris Pugh

We played up in Seattle too, of course. We did end up playing some clubs up there, didn’t we?

‍

Nathan Paull

Yes we did. Dragon Palace and I can't remember where the hell else we played, but it'll all come out in the wash at some point.

‍

John Shultz

Did you guys play the Rock Against Reagan?

‍

Nathan Paull

That was later. The Young Pioneers definitely played that and there’s lots of video out on the web of that show. That was-

‍

Chris Pugh

There is?

‍

Nathan Paull

Yes, there is. Young Pioneers tearing it up with an enthusiastic crowd of malcontent weirdos with bad hairdos dancing in front of them. 

‍

Chris Pugh

I don't think I saw that. You'll have to show me that later.

‍

Nathan Paull

A bunch of places out at Evergreen. Dorm parties at Evergreen, Bruce Pavitt’s party somewhere, Ginnie Daugherty housewarming parties, playing with Supreme Cool Beings. Kurt Homans’ party up at his parents' place in Tacoma where a whole bunch of bands played in the backyard.

‍

Chris Pugh

It's house parties and at Evergreen. 

‍

Nathan Paull

Yep.

‍

Chris Pugh

A couple of bar gigs up in Seattle. I'm not sure what-[26:37, both talking, unclear]

‍

Nathan Paull

Battle of the bands in Port Townsend. Party in Margo Benedettos’ backyard. An Off Campus School graduation party. 

‍

Chris Pugh

I don't remember that.

‍

Nathan Paull 

Good Lord. Playing at Deb Rohrbach house, Kurt's [Holman] apartment. “A” dorm. Downtown at the Boystown space above Barnes Floral directly across from the Smithfield Cafe.

‍

Chris Pugh

So that's ‘80 and ‘81.

‍

Nathan Paull

‘81 to ‘82

‍

Chris Pugh

81 to 82, ok.

‍

Nathan Paull

Open mic night at Gnu Deli. First gig.

‍

John Shultz  27:09

What was the first club? Was it the Trop [Tropicana]?

‍

Chris Pugh

Tropicana was not around yet.

‍

John Shultz

Not then. But, was the Trop the first punk club that kinda popped up?

‍

Chris Pugh

I guess so. Kinda. Yeah, absolutely.

‍

Nathan Paull

Previous to that, the way that all came up-

‍

Chris Pugh

You know, we did a show in that space maybe previously with the Wipers or something. 

‍

Nathan Paull

Greg Sage and Brad Sweek, Brad from the Young Pioneers, Chris's band later on down the road, were in contact with each other. Greg said, “Well, the Wipers will come up and play. Where are we going to play?” and Brad's like, “There really isn't a whole lot of places to play.” But Bradley- 4th Ave at the time, as to this day, has lots of windows and storefronts that say for rent or lease in the front window and Brad just walked right in, across from the 4th Ave Tav [4th Ave Tavern], got the phone number, called these people up, said “I want to rent the space.” Don't know what he told them or whether for how long it was or whatever. Didn't tell them, I don't think, why he wanted to rent it.

‍

Chris Pugh

I don't think so. But we ended up getting a year lease on it.

‍

Nathan Paull

On that particular space. 

‍

Chris Pugh

We used Larry- some of Larry's money-

‍

Nathan Paull

Was this for the Wipers’ space? The space where the Wipers happened.

‍

Chris Pugh

I think it's the same spot, isn't it?

‍

Nathan Paull

No.

‍

Chris Pugh

Okay.

‍

Nathan Paull

No. The Trop’s down the street. But the storefront just across from the 4th Ave- at any rate, Young Pioneers and Koo Stark opened up for the Wipers. One off show. Brad and a bunch of other people ran down to the Safeway that was downtown, stole a bunch of milk crates from out behind the Safeway-

‍

Chris Pugh

Built the stage, that’s right.

‍

Nathan Paull

grabbed a bunch of plywood and threw a temporary stage together and did it and had this one off show. My flyer from that show is now living at Rainy Day Records. At any rate, they pulled that off and then the need arose and obviously that there wasn't a space for all ages shows to happen. Brad got the brilliant idea and got together with Larry Roberts, who was here going to Evergreen from Great Falls, Montana. His parents were feeding him a lot of money and supplying him with a lot of cash.

‍

Chris Pugh

I don't know if they were but he managed to extract it out of them for the improvements that needed to get done on the space.

‍

Nathan Paull 

They found another space down at 311 East 4th, which is where Jake's used to be. City Lights, Slow Ride, Metropolis and all those other incarnations that all failed because it wasn't an all ages space… and they started the Tropicana.

‍

Chris Pugh

Yep, that's it.

‍

John Shultz  29:52

Let's back up a little bit because that's a little bit later. Pet Products broke up in ‘81-

‍

Nathan Paull

Two.

‍

Schultz

‘82, because I'm sure, infighting and somebody's head got big and you all think you’re too cool, I'm sure.

‍

Nathan Paull 

Well, the interchangeable girlfriend thing just was not working out. I mean, we were running out of interchangeable girlfriends. There was artistic differences.

‍

Chris Pugh

I can't remember honestly what- I started going to school, and I started playing with Brad [Sweek] and Scott Vanderpool I started playing in another band and I think-

‍

Nathan Paull

Went in a different direction.

‍

Chris Pugh

I felt like I wanted to move on from it. 

‍

Schultz

Young Pioneers?

‍

Chris Pugh

Yeah, that was Young Pioneers. 

‍

Nathan Paull

Scott had been in Koo Sark.

‍

Chris Pugh

There was some hard feelings. I feel like I was having a little bit of a hard time with Ian just because of his- he was young-

‍

Paul

He was naughty.

‍

Chris Pugh

And he was a little bit hard to deal with sometimes. 

‍

Nathan Paull

[laughter]

‍

Chris Pugh

His behavior was a little less than stellar. As was mine probably in other ways, but I think-

‍

Nathan Paull

You mean we were acting like a bunch of 18 year olds? I find that hard to believe. At age 18.

‍

Chris Pugh

Also, maybe musically, I don't know. It happens. But I didn't have terribly hard feelings towards anybody, at the time.

‍

Nathan Paull

No, we were all just doing different things and ended up playing with different groups of people and getting different bands together moving forward from there.

‍

John Shultz  31:31

You started Guillotine? Was that your next band, Nathan?

‍

Nathan Paull

No, Ian McKinnon and I grabbed his big brother Ricky, Ricky McKinnon And Rick Lewis-

‍

Chris Pugh

Idol Worship came next.

‍

Nathan Paull

Idle Worship came next for us. That was kind of an ‘83, ‘84 type of deal right up to the beginning of ‘85. Rick decided he wanted to go for a less arty but more punk rock approach, more sludgy, and grabbed his friends and they formed the Immoral Roberts. 

‍

Chris Pugh

Was that Rick Ringler?

‍

Nathan Paull

It wasn’t Rick Ringler. It was-

‍

Chris Pugh

Matt, Matt Zodrow.

‍

Nathan Paull

Matt Zodrow, Chris Martin, and those guys. He went off to be the vocalist for them. We did our Guillotine thing, which was Chris coming back around again.

‍

Chris Pugh

I was in it briefly, right? Until I got kicked out.

‍

Nathan Paull

‘Til your brother kicked you out of the band that you started. That was our faux Spinal Tap version of a heavy metal band. With squealing screaming guitar playing-

‍

Chris Pugh

My brother playing guitar in it. 

‍

Nathan Paull

Yeah, Chris’ little brother playing shred fest up front on the guitar. Zero vocals, but quite the showman and definitely quite the guitar player. That was the Guillotine thing. A little bit right before that, I think was the Generic Crib Death episode with Rick Ringler on guitar, Ted Moats on vocals, Ian on drums and me on bass. GCD.

‍

Chris Pugh

I remember that one too. 

‍

Nathan Paull

Green Cough Drops. Goofy Coot Diggers. Girls Craving Dick. Granny's Cranny Drips.

‍

Chris Pugh

You guys came up with several. [laughter]

‍

Nathan Paull

Gruesome Concealed Defects. Yes, there was quite the many lengthy acronyms for that band. We did end up opening with a couple of bands at the time back then whether it was the Green River- we played with a whole bunch of different bands.

‍

John Shultz  33:41

That's a good question too. What were some of the most memorable shows you guys did?

‍

Nathan Paull

Oh, wow. There's so many. Any show at the Tropicana was always a blast. It didn't matter who you're playing with, because there was so many people. That's where I ended up meeting the guys from Girl Trouble. To this day, we're still great friends. They're still in the same band after-

‍

Chris Pugh

40 years.

‍

Nathan Paull

40 years.

‍

Chris Pugh

Crazy. 

‍

Nathan Paull

Any and all of the gigs down there were always- even ones that we weren't playing that we’d just go to- I mean, Black Flag was hilarious, because the best sound was outside on the sidewalk because it was so goddamn loud that hardly anybody wanted to be inside. Plus, they were charging $5. $5? I mean, who do you think you are, the Beatles? No one charges $5. All the shows were two bucks. The Black Flag show was amazing. The Three O’Clock, DOA, Melvins, He-Sluts. the Wipers. Any of the Young Pioneers shows. There were just way too many. Butthole Surfers playing with Guillotine. Tex and the Horseheads. Oh, and then the hilarious Slayer show. Only hilarious to me because, at the time, nobody knew who this band Slayer was, but there was this awful Christian band that everybody knew of that was on heavy rotation on MTV at the time. Awful. Stryper. And I thought, Man, there is no way in hell I'm going to pay to go see Stryper at the Tropicana at my own club, in my own hometown. Well, turns out it was Slayer.

‍

Chris Pugh

Not Stryper.

‍

Nathan Paull

Not Striper.  Bummer for me. Apparently, that was an amazing show as well. They pulled up with either a TransAm, or a Camaro that had a trailer hitch on it. Literally. With a trailer full of equipment. Out on the road with Slayer. Coming to Olympia.

‍

Chris Pugh

Well, the great thing about the Tropicana-

‍

Nathan Paull

Jodie Foster's Army. 

‍

Chris Pugh

Was that you could- after it started the city did have to come and inspect it. They kind of did know what we were going to do there. I remember being in there with Larry, building. We had to quadruple sheetrock the back wall to make it into a fire wall. Everybody took sort of a different role. Brad had got- Larry funded a lot of it to begin with. I helped work on the place. Brad got the- he may have called maybe Hugo [ran the Metropolis], one of the guys from the Metropolis and got his list of touring bands that used to play the Metropolis. That's how I recall it. So the Trop could get all these bands that were between Seattle and Portland, touring national act type bands, to come play the Tropicana.

‍

Nathan Paull

Instead of the Evergreen Ballroom.

‍

Chris Pugh

Because it was right on their way along the west coast. It was a place they could get a gig not on a weekend. Or on a weekend. 

‍

Nathan Paull

Make some more gas money to get to the next city.

‍

Chris Pugh

It was a stop through. Eventually, after a few months, it was on the map. Bands actually knew about it and were calling to get shows there as opposed to the other way around.

‍

John Shultz  37:40

By the 90s there was a trifecta. Austin, Chapel Hill, and Olympia were the fucking indie rock fucking Mecca. Maybe a little Minneapolis as well. Even back as early as the early ‘80s that was starting?

‍

Nathan Paull

Oh, yeah.

‍

Chris Pugh

For sure.

‍

Nathan Paull

Absolutely.

‍

Chris Pugh

I mean, Sub Pop. Let's just bring up the elephant in the room here that-

‍

Nathan Paull

The 1200 pound elephant.

‍

Chris Pugh

It started in downtown Olympia.

‍

Nathan Paull

Steve Fisk.

Chris Pugh

​​The fact that the Evergreen State College brought a lot of people into town from all over who were fundamental to starting Olympia as it-

‍

Nathan Paull

Dave [Rauh] and Toni [Holm]. John Foster and John Foster's Pop Philosophers. Steve Fisk, Bruce Pavitt. All these guys doing the things that they did at the time. Meeting Calvin [Johnson] when he was 18 and just had a radio show at KAOS [Evergreen State College radio station]. Half the people I went to Off Campus School with that were 18 had radio shows up at KAOS. Fernando Altschul, that was going to Evergreen, this guy we know from Argentina. He had a Musica Del Latina Americana radio show overnight. All these people had radio shows. They were playing all of this stuff from all across the country that was definitely do-it-yourself or startup music. Calvin no less than anybody else. We've all known each other for what, 40 years now?

‍

Chris Pugh

There was a certain synergy. It became a little bit of an incubator for people to start bands.

‍

Nathan Paull

Was John Foster behind Op Magazine?

‍

Chris Pugh

Maybe, yeah, I think so. Yeah.

‍

Nathan Paull

That makes sense. Then Dave [Rauh] and Toni [Holm] that own the radio station in town, I remember they were deep into that whole thing.

‍

Chris Pugh

I do think that the sort of incubator of people getting together and deciding to start bands really pre-dates the Tropicana. The Tropicana would become the outlet for bands wanting to be able to perform. The community of people was a bunch of college kids and townies combined, who, basically all decided to start a band all at once.

‍

Nathan Paull

Pretty much.

‍

Chris Pugh

And they all got in each other’s bands.

‍

Nathan Paull

We were all bored and looking for something to do.

‍

Chris Pugh

There's nothing to do in downtown Olympia. So we're going to play-

‍

Nathan Paull

Let’s rock out.

‍

Chris Pugh

For each other, and have parties and have fun. That grew into obviously a lot more. 

‍

Nathan Paull

It sure as hell wasn't about making money. We always thought, Hey, if everybody jumps up and down- We did, right?

‍

Chris Pugh

Yeah. 

‍

Nathan Paull

If this stuff makes you want to dance- if you don't dance, to Girl Trouble I've always said you're metabolically challenged. What is wrong with you? Why would you not dance to that music?

‍

Chris Pugh

I think, that also, for the time, the scene that was naturally organically occurring was very inclusive for the time, for what we had. Everybody was invited.

‍

Nathan Paull

Even the people that were throwing garbage at us and bottles out in front of the Tropicana, and yelling "fags-"

‍

Chris Pugh

Whether you can play an instrument-

‍

Nathan Paull

and hippies-

‍

Chris Pugh 

Regardless of your whatever, you could start a band, and it would be fun, and people would have a fun time watching you play to the best of your ability. 

‍

Nathan Paull

Absolutely.

‍

John Shultz

That kind of thing I’ve seen about Olympia. Everybody's been in everybody's fucking band. 

‍

Nathan Paull

Yep.

‍

Schultz

It’s still like that, right?

‍

Nathan Paull

You never really break up with anybody, you just lose a turn. That goes for not only musical outfits. Bands and interpersonal relationships are included, I guess, as well.

‍

John Shultz  42:11

Let's talk- I think Chris kind of brought it up a little bit earlier about national politics, local politics, how that influenced your bands and the music you guys were doing at the time.

‍

Nathan Paull

Because of the climate at the time, Russia invading Afghanistan, and then the United States deciding that they were going to reinstate the draft and the Selective Service system and bring all that up one more time. It's like, Oh, that's great. Awesome. Yeah. We don't agree with any of your political views, or the direction that the country is going. Being, the world's policeman, again. Still. Always. Some more. There was definitely a scapegoat in Ronald Reagan just staring at us all right there in the face. It was just the climate at the time. We all heard, Let Them Eat Jelly Beans, which was the most amazing compilation and Dead Kennedys, and Bad Brains, and Feeders. All of these bands that were on there- the drum beats of war, were definitely being pounded right there. It's like your hot button finger on what's going on with the world political view at the time, and we just weren't having it. There was lots of fodder right there staring us in the face and provided us with all kinds of impetus for why we wanted to bring the whole machine down. Not that we could just by playing music, but we definitely had a lot to say about it. Most of the bands did in their music one way or the other. Here in Olympia, everybody was pretty outspoken about the whole thing. Rock Against Reagan in 1984 was definitely a good indicator of that, that everybody was basically on the same page. That was a touring thing that went around the whole country. I wasn't just us.

‍

John Shultz

So you consider most Olympia bands, at the time, including yourself a political band?

‍

Nathan Paull

I wouldn't say we were a political band. Pet Products did a couple songs that had a political- we had our political viewpoint, but no, I don't think politics were really entered into most people's bands in Olympia-

‍

Chris Pugh

Not overtly.

‍

Nathan Paull

No. Exactly. There you go. 

‍

Chris Pugh

But I do think- we covered “Let's Lynch the Landlord”, “Alexander Haig Wants Me”. We had a song called “No Job, No Future”. I think we were addressing our time. We were addressing it sort of, socially politically, but not you know, we didn't-

‍

Nathan Paull

We weren't DOA. 

‍

Chris Pugh

No. We didn't have any songs that were, you know, really-

‍

John John Shultz  45:08

Do you think it was kind of the next step from the hippie movements? The hippies were peace and love and flowers and punk rock was like, “Fuck you, we’ll kick you in the teeth.” But it's all about the same thing.

‍

Chris Pugh

I think it had a counter culture message. Absolutely.

‍

Nathan Paull

Was the next step. 

‍

Chris Pugh

I do think we-

‍

Nathan Paull

After the age of a wretched excess and 17 minute guitar solos. The whole over-the-top, arena rock, hoo-ha bullshit.

‍

Chris Pugh

Right. And certainly, even as teenagers we were clearly the prototype of progressive in our views personally. What we understood. What we were able to understand at that point. That's the direction we were going in. That probably was part of it.

‍

John Shultz  46:08

What were the local politics like? Do the cops hassle you all the time down at the Trop or hanging out on the streets? Did the city want to shut you all down all the time?

‍

Nathan Paull

Oh, absolutely the city wanted to shut us down all the time. That was the hilarious thing. It's like, you know there's got to be some underage drinking or some kind of something that's just not up to snuff going on down there. They can't just be left to their own devices. Tacoma’s, anti-dance ordinance. Like the Footloose movie. Oh, “You can't keep us from dancin’, we're gonna dance.” The locals at the time- this is maybe 10-15 years after Evergreen started. Olympia had problems dealing with the fact that there were people of color in their town, people with different moral, ethical, and sexual orientation background. They hadn't even come to grips with that yet. The fact that their own children were behaving that way. That may be okay for some kids that are coming from the East Coast whose parents are paying for them to go to Evergreen, but they sure didn't expect that kind of action from their own kids. And they had-

‍

John Shultz

The punk attitude what music was being made at the time?

‍

Nathan Paull

Absolutely. Olympia wasn't- the starchy, stodgy old guard that built this town-

‍

Chris Pugh

They didn't build this city on rock and roll.

‍

Nathan Paull

They did not. Obviously. Apparently. That was an awful song by the way. In the larger scheme of things the city stood idly by- was trying to figure out from the day one how to get rid of it. The cops didn't back anybody up on being harassed or having shit thrown at them from people zooming by in their cars yelling, “Faggot.”

‍

Chris Pugh

Do you remember when- was it Vince DeNellis and Ted Moats who rented the parking space?

‍

Nathan Paull

Yeah, yeah, out in front and were loitering.

‍

Chris Pugh

I think the cops eventually came in made them-

‍

Nathan Paull

You can’t rent this parking space forever. 

‍

Chris Pugh

Not with a car.

‍

Nathan Paull

You can't just keep putting coins in the meter.

‍

Chris Pugh

They’d just hang out in it.

‍

Nathan Paull

Loiter. Play guitar. Smoke clove cigarettes. Flick boogers. Generally just be a pesty teenage nuisance and a very visible one. The city was looking for an excuse to get rid of the Tropicana from the word go and basically what they ended up doing is, I'm pretty sure they went to the person that had leased it to Larry and Brad originally and basically said if you renew the lease to these people, we’ll- yeah. We're not sure what it is they threatened them with but they basically said, “Do not renew the lease to these people.” So at any rate, the person that was going to be able to renew the lease said, “Hey, there's this restaurant named Crackers that's going to be opening here in the building next door, and we need your space for restaurant equipment storage.  So, we're not gonna be able to renew your lease, we're really sorry, bye.” Then they turned right around after they chased the Tropicana out and didn't lease- actually they leased it to some guys that ran a packrat secondhand store for two years. The city just fabricated a lie to get them out of there and told this guy, “Do not renew the lease for these people or else.”

‍

John Shultz

Did the cops give you all shit?

‍

Nathan Paull

No. Cops never gave people shit down there because we weren't doing anything illegal. There wasn't people smoking weed on the sidewalks. There wasn't a bunch of 16 year olds drinking.

‍

Chris Pugh

There wasn’t really a noise complaint in that part of town either, with the doors closed. There weren't open businesses there. No residential area that close-

‍

Nathan Paull

No one was living in downtown back then. The businesses were all closed by 5pm.

‍

Chris Pugh

They may have hassled it a few times, but I don't think that was a big problem.

‍

Nathan Paull

It wasn't. It wasn't. Olympia has always been a place where kids should be seen but not heard. Seriously. My parents moved us down here because they heard at the time was a great place to raise kids. It's a great place to raise kids. It's not necessarily a great place for kids. To this day. That horseshit that they pulled on pulling the plug on the Tropicana was just inexcusable, which is pretty much why I think the curse of the Tropicana extended until Devin True was running Metropolis, which was the only other incarnation of that place that was an all ages club, and only one that was successful. Every other place that was in there that decided they were going to have alcohol was doomed to failure, because they screwed the kids of Olympia out of their first and only all-ages venue.

‍

John Shultz 

There's no all-ages venue now. That's the curse all over the city.

‍

Nathan Paull

Almost 40 years later.

‍

Schultz

Still a problem.

‍

Schultz

Still a problem. Olympia has finally accepted that they have Evergreen in town, and it's been a huge benefit to the town, culturally and monetarily and in so many other ways. Now, there's multigenerational generations of kids that have gone there, their own and kid trust fund, trust a far eye from the East Coast that have gone there. They've gotten over their selves about that whole other people from those walks of life. This place was a cultural vacuum. The entire time I went to public schools growing up here, there were like five people of color, literally. You can hear the same thing from anybody from Olympia School District, Tumwater School District, North Thurston School District, you can name all those families of people of color on one hand. I'm talking 25 years ago into school around here? My parents moved down here from Seattle, like, “This isn't the real world. Where's all the black people? Where’s all the Russian people? Where's all the Chinese people? Where's all the Samoans? Where's the Filipinos? Where's all the people that were in Seattle? What did you guys move me to?” I literally had to move back to Seattle for 10 years, because, hey, it's still here. The real world is still here. Olympia is not the real world. All these different cultures, and it's not well represented here. You pop up and start having some culture, you're going to be told to be- just put in your place. Don't you be trying to bring any culture into this white bread area. You uppity, already progressive, leaning to the left weirdos.

‍

John Shultz

A cop told me once the best line ever to describe Olympia: 18 square miles surrounded by reality. And it's the truth.

‍

Nathan Paull

You go 40 miles out of this town, you go 40 years back in time. Any direction you want. Up in the hills, down in the hollers, down the valley, up the mountainside, down the mountainside, out to the coast you're treading on some murky water there, boy. You better watch your step.

‍

John Shultz  53:36

What do you think about the natural environment of Olympia compared to say Seattle or Portland? Olympia is a little bit more- got a little bit more naturalized areas. Did that affect the music at all?

‍

Nathan Paull

I'm sure to a certain extent it did. People are a little bit more inspired than you would be in an urban setting. I think inspired more in a, not a softer, gentler kind of way, but not such a hard-edged. It's not an industrial area, it's not going to have an industrial kind of sound. you come from Smelter Town up in Asarco-ville Tacoma and it's gonna have a bit dirtier tone to it. That's not Olympia.There's plenty of much more melodic, softer, cooler stuff that- I think the geographical setting has a lot to do with it. More time to contemplate your navel while you're staring at the razor clams squirting on the beach down on Bud Inslet. Digging up your gooey ducks and hanging out in McLane Creek Nature Trail or whatever down at the delta. Whereas city life is city life.

‍

John Shultz  55:03

Talk about the dark side of it all.

‍

Nathan Paull

Oh boy.

‍

Schultz

The drugs, violence and all that. 

‍

Nathan Paull

Geesh.

‍

Schultz

Was that a thing in the early ‘80s and the mid ‘80s.

‍

Nathan Paull

Not really.

‍

Schultz

Jumk and coke, and violence against punks and all that hoo-ha.

‍

Nathan Paull

There wasn't a whole lot of violence against punks, because I think we have some really, really lazy hillbillies in this town. If they really wanted to bring it, they could of. But they were a bunch of pussies.

‍

Chris Pugh

When are you talking about? Like what part of-

‍

John Shultz

Early ‘80s, mid ‘80s.

‍

Nathan Paull

Early to the mid ‘80s.

‍

Chris Pugh

I don't think that, among that community we’re discussing, there was a huge drug problem then. That was later.

‍

Nathan Paull

We were discussing that the other day in our pre-interview thing, trying to figure out when did dope and all of that stuff make its way way in into here-

‍

Chris Pugh

Later ‘80s. Mid late ‘80s. Some of the people I was hanging out with in the Young Pioneers era, it started to creep in a little bit there.

‍

Nathan Paull

From Seattle or Tacoma. Definitely wasn't from here in town. It was creeping in from-

‍

Chris Pugh

Yeah, it wasn't.

‍

Nathan Paull

It did not exist. I didn't know that my bandmates were doing it until I go to do this gig at Community World Theater and we go to the Hell House in Tacoma on 56th and go down to grab some stuff out of the basement for Jim Swindell and his apartment, and two of my bandmates start shooting up. I’m like, Oh! I didn't know.

‍

Schultz

Did that darken up the music? 

‍

Nathan Paull

No, no.

‍

Chris Pugh

I don't know. I might have changed the personalities, a bit of the people. I'm not sure what the influence on the music was really. I don't know if there's a direct link.

‍

John Shultz  57:07

Do you guys still play now? 

‍

Chris Pugh

Yep.

‍

Paul

Chris does.

‍

Schultz

Who do you play with now?

‍

Chris Pugh

I played with- let's see the progression of bands… I'm back playing a little bit with one of them called Creep who actually started here in Olympia too, in the ‘90s. We played down here at one of those park shows and we played one show up in Seattle. I'm working on a new band with Scott Vanderpool.

‍

Paul

Vanderpool and Colin Meek.

‍

Chris Pugh

And Colm

‍

Chris Pugh

Just a three piece. My first ever three piece. I'm digging it. 

‍

Schultz

What kind of music?

‍

Chris Pugh

I'd say it is less cerebral, more sort of straightforward punk rock. Not hardcore. Just kind of in the vein of I would say Wire, the Buzzcocks. It's fairly simple rock stuff with some vocal harmonies in it thrown in. We might actually play out. We're looking into it. We're actually going to play a party. We have a party coming up.

‍

Nathan Paull

Just like the olden days. 

‍

Chris Pugh

Little party. That'll be our start off, to play a party because we're going to play it with Vanderpool’s kid, Lindsey, who's in a band [Tom Nook]. She's living in New York, but she's coming back for the holiday and her band is going to get back together. So we'll play with the next generation. Up in Seattle on the 30th, Nathan.

‍

Nathan Paull

Of December? I'll make that.

‍

Chris Pugh

December 30th, Vanderpool’s house.

‍

Nathan Paull

I'll be gainfully unemployed at that point. 

‍

Chris Pugh

You guys should come up.

‍

Nathan Paull

At least me. If I can't bring the wife, I’ll show up. 

‍

Chris Pugh

Yeah, you should definitely come up.

‍

Nathan Paull

That sounds like a blast.

‍

Chris Pugh

Feel free to join.

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John Shultz

If your wife can’t come then I'll come with you.

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Chris Pugh

There you go.

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Nathan Paull

John can be my wife for the night. 

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Chris Pugh

Yeah.

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Schultz

That's creepy. 

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Nathan Paull

Technically, not literally. 

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Schultz

That’s creepy.

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Chris Pugh

That's on tape.

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Nathan Paull

Currently, I'm not playing. 

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Chris Pugh

I’ll be your wife.

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Nathan Paull

Getting married and getting all domestic and settled down got in the way of a lot of things. But at that point, about 10 years ago, I'd already decided I’d gotten to play with pretty much everybody I wanted to play with. I've still got all my gear. I still play occasionally. For and with myself. If the opportunity presented itself where there was a group of like-minded people that I wanted to play with, I’d totally be into it. But, when you only have one or two days off the week, woodshedding in a grungy garage with Tom Shoblom and Gary Allen May, when I could be hanging out with my lovely wife-

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Chris Pugh

Everybody makes their- I find, I make time for it. This is not the kind of thing where we have band practice three nights a week.

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Nathan Paull

Not like the olden days.

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Chris Pugh

We’ll practice once a week to kind of keep it- if we have a show maybe we’ll do two, to try and bring it up to speed. It's a hobby. It's not a profession.

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Nathan Paull 

Always has been. If you’re not having-

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Chris Pugh

It may have been taken a little bit more seriously with more- there may have been aspirations that were sort of different than they are now, at some point. For me, I know, there were. And it led to whatever it did, but right now, that's not really the focus, obviously. We'd be happy to play the geezer circuit in Seattle. There's like four or five clubs up there that cater to old people.

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Nathan Paull

They sure do.

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Chris Pugh

If you see somebody in there who's under 30, it's one of the band members' kids probably, who’s come to the show.

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Nathan Paull

If it's not Barrels, if it's not the Skylark, if it's not Slim’s Last Chance

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Chris Pugh

and Lucky Liquor

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Nathan Paull

and Lucky Liquor. It's definitely the geezer circuit.

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Chris Pugh

I'm happy to write, keep playing, maybe record. I just like to do it, because I like to do it. I like going to hang out with my friends. I like writing songs still. I write a lot of songs, I always wrote a lot of songs all the time, for better or worse. That's no problem, coming up with material. It's just a matter of having the time in place to do it.

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Nathan Paull

With kids, and marriages and careers, and all of that. When we were 18, it's not like we really had to try that hard to, make the rent when I was still living at our parents’-

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Chris Pugh

You can practice every night

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Nathan Paull

When you have nothing but free time on your hands... That's the other reason why all of that was happening at that time, is that everybody had all that free time on their hands, and they didn't have to pay the rent. They didn't have to pay the grocery bill. They didn't have to- hours and hours and hours and hours can be spent doing literally nothing but screwing off and making noise with your friends and a bunch of amplifiers and music equipment.

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Chris Pugh

Even when I did have to pay the rent. Think about it. I'm living at the Caddyshack with four other people. The rent is $100 a month. So rent is kind of like-

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Nathan Paull 

Relative. Very relative. Poor Caddyshack, she went down real hard.

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Chris Pugh

Yeah. Good spot, though, for a long time.

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Nathan Paull

Great spot for quite some time.

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John Shultz  1:03:14

[To Chris] You're not in Olympia anymore. But Nathan, you are. You still work downtown? 

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Nathan Paull

Oh, yeah.

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Schultz

What have you seen? How's the music scene changed in Olympia since the ‘80s when you were playing in a band?

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Nathan Paull

There's still one hell of a music scene. There's lots and lots of bands and lots of people playing music and making music, writing music, doing gigs, doing shows. Art openings and you name it. That hasn't changed a bit. It's only grown more prolific.

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Schultz

There’s more places to play now. 

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Nathan Paull

Absolutely. Good Lord, thank goodness for places like the Capitol Theater. All of the all ages clubs that came after the Tropicana whether it was GESSCO or Reko Muse, or I can't even remember the names of some of the other- Uncola club. All these places, they aren't here anymore, but there's a lot more places that cater to having live music of one sort or another. That doesn't have to be just bars. Dumpster Values, come on! Old School Pizzeria. Those places have packed shows full of kids all the time. It doesn't even have to be a weekend night, it can be a Tuesday night and that place is absolutely packed full of people and the windows are running with sweat and you can't even see into the place just like the olden days. 

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Chris Pugh

I want to go see a show there.

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Nathan Paull

Punk's not dead. Music’s not dead in Olympia. It's every bit as prolific or vibrant as it was in the olden days. There's just a lot more kids, a lot more people, a lot more venues. And everybody is still doing it themselves, just the way it always has been. The Melvins were playing at the Tropicana, and they were these hicks out from Montesano, just like hicks from here in town. Their band was super cool and grungy and sounded great. Their idiot friends from Aberdeen came into town and were watching them and they're like, “Well, shit, we could do that.” That was Kurt [Cobain] and Krist [Novoselic]. That's where that all goes. Some people are still doing it, and some people decided to go off and do it for big money and other people are still just doing it because they love to do it to this day.

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Chris Pugh 

No, I did it for big money.

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Nathan Paull

Chris did it for big money. It turns out though, I've got one of his royalty checks from Sub Pop, I used to have it nailed up above the bar at the Eastside Club and it is for 42 cents. Just so you know the kind of big money we're talking about. If you end up on Sub Pop, and you do become a megastar, which he certainly has been at times.

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Chris Pugh

They don't send those out anymore. They wait to let it cruise up to like 50 bucks, so I should get one before I die.

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Nathan Paull 

At least one $50 check from Sub Pop. That's what you get for being a Sub Pop label star. The rest of us are still wallowing in the downtown 4th Ave sludge. We do know people that for a long time own their own record companies. Calvin Johnson was nice enough to put out the Young Pioneers LP on K Records. We're still in the works with Slim Moon and Kill Rock Stars working on that Pet Products LP. There is still a chance that we can elude stardom for literally the rest of our lives. Girl Trouble has been doing it since 1984. We've been doing it since a little bit before that. But boy, we're all still in the same boat, aren't we? A bunch of old geezers that just don't know when to hang it up. Yeah, I'm talking to you, Paul McCartney.

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John Shultz  1:07:01

You guys like to say anything, where we close this shit down.

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Nathan Paull

Great to be part of this project. There's a lot of people who have a lot of great info about the olden days. It's gonna be very cool to be hearing what people like Ryan Von Bargen, and Jerry Ziegler, and Calvin Johnson, and whoever and anybody that had anything to do with the Olympia music scene. Tobi Vail, all of these people from way back in the olden days, Donna Dresch, everybody and anybody. This is all integral to-

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Chris Pugh

Supreme Cool Beings.

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Nathan Paull

Supreme Cool Beings- making sure that future generations know where all of this came from, what and where and how and why. It might explain it if we get everybody's stories out on the table. Why the perfect storm happened here, as opposed to somewhere else. Evergreen must have had a big part to play in it. That and it's in the water. That’s what they say. Once you drink it, you're never leaving. You'll always come back.

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Chris Pugh

Might I mention too, It's The Water is a great compilation that our friend Colin put out. It's a little bit later down the road. That was another sort of cool era in Olympia music with all those bands. Calamity Jane and Helltrout.

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Nathan Paull

Dung Pump, Fitz of Depression, Helltrout, The Noses. So many bands. So many eras.

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Chris Pugh

It just keeps going.

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Nathan Paull

It does. It's nonstop. The golden era is going to be always. I mean, I don't see it letting up anytime soon. I can't-

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Chris Pugh

Who are your favorite bands here now? Do you have one? Have you gone to-

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Nathan Paull

I'm being motioned to make a plug for the guy that's interviewing us. So, I'd have to say Chance of Ghosts.

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Chris Pugh

Pretty good band? Like ‘em?

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Nathan Paull

I like ‘em.

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Chris Pugh

Oh good. Maybe we should-

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Nathan Paull

They’re right up my alley and other people's as well.

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Chris Pugh

I'll bring my new band down. We can get a gig at McCoys.

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Nathan Paull

At where? What's that name again? [laughter] There's so many local bands right now. There's plenty of fabulous bands that a lot of people really love. I don't get to go out and see live music as much as I used to, but working in the bars downtown I've definitely gotten to see a lot of top notch stuff and it's endless. The list is endless of all the great bands that are out there that are local bands. The national touring bands that come through that are pretty small names that no one's ever heard of, they're still every bit as good as all the stuff that's homegrown that comes right from here. So whether it's geezer rock, or people that aren't even old enough to get into the bars, there's plenty of good music going around and there always will be, I have a feeling. Special thanks to the people that finally got this project together and doing the interviews and putting the right people on the job, like John here. Thank you for your service. And maybe that 20 bucks later under the table. 

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Schultz

All right, cool. Well, thanks, guys. 

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Nathan Paull

Thank you. It's been fun.

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