Kelsey Smith  0:05  

This is Kelsey Smith. This is an interview with Candice Pedersen as part of the Olympia, indie music history project. Today is Tuesday, February 21 2023. I am in Olympia, Washington. And Candice is in...

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Candice Pedersen  0:28  

I'm in Palm Desert, California, which is just part of the Palm Springs area.

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Kelsey Smith  0:34  

And we are conducting this interview over Zoom. Okay, so Candice, first question: Just tell us a little bit about your younger years in Olympia.

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Candice Pedersen  0:49  

I say I'm originally from Olympia, but actually my family's from California, the Redwood City area. We moved up to Olympia.  When I was about five years old, I started first grade. [clears throat] And I'm sorry, I have a cold,I think.

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I did actually live in Olympia, I lived in an area called Steamboat Island, which is between Shelton and Olympia. I lived there from 5 to 17 when I went to college, which was also in Olympia. [chuckles] So when I was growing up, I lived on a farm, just kind of a self-sustaining farm. And when we weren't in school, we worked the farm. And so that's what I did. I don't have a deep history in music as a kid, though I would listen to my radio. And when I was about 12, I started listening to KAOS, which is the station at Evergreen, which is how I then began to be interested in music. When I turned- that same year, when I was 12, So 1977- I went to high school at Capitol High School. So that was one of the I think the four main high schools at the time. And through there, I met a couple male friends who were into music. So that's how I started kind of knowing more about KAOS and knowing more about music. And my history in Olympia goes from [age] 5 to nearly 40. [laughs] So I was there for quite some time.

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Kelsey Smith: 

Thank you. Okay, so...

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Candice Pedersen: Wait, now let me ask a question. Would you like more detail, or is that like...

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Kelsey Smith  2:45  

Whatever you feel comfortable with, that's totally okay.

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Candice Pedersen  2:48  

Okay, that's good, I think that's a good foundation. 

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Kelsey Smith: I was curious about what animals you had, but that’s just me. [laughs]

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Candice Pedersen: Oh, okay. So I'll tell you what animals we had. We had everything. We had horses and cows, pigs- I literally slopped pigs, taking buckets of slop out to the field. Goats, though we didn't eat the goats. That was kind of more of a pet animal. Chickens, turkeys, ducks, geese.

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You know, we kind of had everything. I hated horses. I don't like horses. I mean, we had a pony too. I hate horses and ponies. So my summers were spent, you know, with the animals. And then we had [a] vegetable garden, fruit garden. So we just canned and grew vegetables and all that, all year long.

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So a real Farm Girl. And we are quite poor too. 

Kelsey Smith: That’s important. 

Candice Pedersen: Yeah, that's a foundation to a lot of what I've done.

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Kelsey Smith  3:58  

Okay, so you just touched on this a little bit? Can you remember when you first became interested in the Olympia music scene? And was there a particular band that stood out for you at that time? Was there a band that kind of charged it up? 

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Candice Pedersen  4:15  

So when I first started paying attention to music in Olympia, I don't know that I understood there was an Olympia music scene, this would have been 1983. I graduated from high school in 1983. Prior to that, when I was at home, we weren't allowed to do anything. So whatever might have existed wasn't something I would have known about. And I wasn't allowed to go out, like stay with friends or anything. So nobody's talking to me about anything, not because they hate me or anything, it's just that I would have said no. So it's like, I didn't really have any kind of history. But when I started going to KAOS, and I would go to a friend's show, I would learn all about all kinds of music. And the first two Olympia bands I recall are the Young Pioneers and the Wimps. So if there was a scene, that's all I would have known. And I liked ‘em both, because you would see them like play in an alley, or like a little party. And so, I guess, yeah, if there was compelling bands, it was those bands. Then a couple years later, maybe 18 months later, there's a band called... oh, shoot, I'm suddenly going to blank on their names, and then I lived with two of the members. This is terrible. It wasn't a Mike Shaughnessy band. Oh, gosh, I can't remember. But so there was some other bands sort of floating around. I felt like it was more like people were in a band because it was a concept more than like- Oh! Volume Three, that was their name. Have you heard that name? Okay, so volume three was a sort of pop band that was in the circle of music. And in fact, in a weird connection of things, Bob Schermerhorn, who was a drummer who drummed for the Wipers for a very short amount of time. And then my husband, brother also drummed for the Wipers for a much longer periods of time. So there's a weird connection there. That I think is interesting because I, two of the members of that band had lived in my house in 1985.

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So when there became to be something called the Olympia music scene, I still feel like it was just a few bands, and there was one hippie band, Heliotroupe.

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And I did not like their music, but I did like the people a lot and I think they were punk rockers at heart. But… so there was kind of an overlap because there was just so little to choose from. And what I found very quickly was I loved live music, so it kind of didn't matter.

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Kelsey Smith  7:44  

That's great. I'm, by the way, I'm trying to not make noises, but I really want to.

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Candice Pedersen

Okay.

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Kelsey Smith

 So if you hear me if you see me like nodding, that's me being like, “mmm hmm!” And like, I hadn't heard of that band, so that's interesting. I'm always like adding new bands to this giant, growing list. And I talked to Danny Kelly from Heliotroupe last week…

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Candice Pedersen 

Oh my Gosh!

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Kelsey Smith

Like meadow parties and stuff...

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Candice Pedersen  8:19  

I’m just so glad to know Danny Kelly's still alive. Oh, so the meadow parties, I thought that was normal. I did not know that other people, other colleges’ Alumni Associations did not buy them tubs of mushroom tea. I just thought “oh, yep, everybody does this” because it was the only college I've ever been to. Nobody in my family has ever been to college before. I mean, I was literally the first person in my immediate, my extended [family], so I had no basis for reality of what college was like. So I was like, “well, that must be what college is like.” I mean, I'd seen Animal House, so [it] seemed relative.

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Kelsey Smith  9:11  

Oh man, I love that. Okay, so that's actually… well, I don't know, I feel like I should swap these questions around, because it seems like you're talking about this though. So let me flip flop these two questions, and let's talk about your experience attending Evergreen because you kind of started talking about that.

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Candice Pedersen  9:39  

So when I decided I wanted to go to college- well, I don't even think I decided I wanted to go to college. I knew I had to because if I didn't go to college...

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Kelsey Smith  9:54  

Let's pause for a second. There's like some kind of chopper going over my house or something. Okay, can you- I'm so sorry, can you can you start that part over again?

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Candice Pedersen  10:06  I think so, I can't remember really what I said but I know it was about college. So when I decided to go to college, like I said, nobody had ever been to college in my family and in fact, my parents actively discouraged me from going. A counselor paid my tuition too- or, not my tuition, my application fee, because my parents would not do that. Keep in mind and application fee in 1982, was $50. And that would have been, if they had paid it, their one investment in my college education, there was none. But I was a voracious reader as a child. I would read anything and everything. And what I could ascertain was, a way out was college. But what I also knew was, I didn't know anything about the world, I had lived on a farm. I didn't want to go to Seattle, I didn't know anything about it. I didn't want to be- I've never been around big groups of people, like the idea of a big college scared me. And honestly, I was a weirdo. Like, we'd had Evergreen students stay with us. Even though they were all hippies, they made more sense to me than like the people I went to school with. So it never dawned on me to go anywhere, but Evergreen. And I thought it was a miracle I got in. Again, I keep this in mind: I started in the fall of 83. Anybody- I mean, my dog could get in, I had no idea.

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But I was so excited. And you know, there are fewer than 10 great decisions I've made, and maybe only five, and Evergreen was one of them. It definitely changed the direction of the life I would have had. I remember, my first week there, we had these books, and we were supposed to read a Sigmund Freud book, something about the id. I had literally never even heard of the id. It was just like mind blowing these things that people knew, that I didn't know. It was truly amazing. And I was completely at odds with most of the students I was at school with. So that was kind of interesting. I was the youngest [student] by far. when I started college, I was only 17. The average age of a freshman at Evergreen at that time was 22. And I was an incredibly naive 17. So I had a lot to learn. But I also didn't come with many biases… my world, everything was new, because all I knew was the life I lived on a farm and things I read in a book. And so I just started hearing about theater and music. And so it was at Evergreen before it opened that I saw my first real rock show, which was the Wipers and the Young Pioneers- a really great way to start. And it was that kind of thing where it's like, it's not like I hated music before that. I just never cared about music. Because it didn't resonate with me. Music I like today- I like Fleetwood Mac today, when it was out and I was that age I didn't even understand it. I just was like what is this? Why? Why is this? But when I started hearing like punk rock, it just clicked. And it all coalesced at Evergreen. I really really think my lucky stars that I was determined to go. And stay, you know. It was a hard thing to do. Luckily Olympia was cheap, but it was still really hard to put myself through school.

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Kelsey Smith  14:12  

How did you put yourself through school?

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Candice Pedersen  14:16  

I had three jobs. So I worked full time plus the whole time. And then I got good financial aid. Well, for the first two years. It was right before Reagan just completely decimated Pell grants and financial aid, so I had decent financial aid. I probably left college with maybe $5,000 of debt, so it wasn't too bad, and I just worked and worked. And Olympia was so cheap, like, for one thing I never lived on campus because I could get an apartment and buy my own food cheaper than if I was at school. Plus the idea of living with strangers terrified me. So I wouldn't have done that anyway. My first house was four girls in an apartment, and each of us paid $54 a month. So, you could still be poor and do things, achieve things. So that's how I did it. And at one point, I did get mono, because I overworked but that was a real result of that. But that was really the only bad thing that happened.

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Kelsey Smith  15:45  

I got mono when I was a freshman too.

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Candice Pedersen  15:48  

I was a junior I think because I was already done maybe with classes, something like that, anyway. But yeah, it was just too much school. Too much work. I know, I couldn't even get it the right way. No making out.

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Kelsey Smith  16:21  

What are some things you took away from your time in Olympia, that continue to shape your life today? 

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Candice Pedersen  16:36  

Well, I think one thing that's always true, is I'm still very progressive. What's interesting to me is I'm actually more progressive and more angry with the world than even I was then. So I think that fire that maybe comes from within, but is fostered in those kinds of communities- that's the thing that's retained. But also, the sense of commitment to do something, because just being fired up isn't really very-  it's just zero, not effective. One of the things I liked about Olympia- I actually saw this when I worked at Microsoft, it's one of the things I like that Microsoft- is that commitment to doing. And a commitment to giving, that you don't always see in other places. So I feel very much like my responsibility to my “where I am,” is a result of having a sense of that from Olympia.  So like, one of the things I want to do when you know, I'm not working, is I plan to get very involved in politics here. That's my retirement plan. You know, like, “oh, no, you get more invested in your town, and you try to change at least one thing.” You know, another thing that sticks with me that's a little more- not silly, but not as profound is- this is gonna sound really stupid, but my love of vegetables. Like I grew up on a farm, I didn't know, I hated it at the time, but I was very spoiled. We had farm fresh food, we had our own meats. In fact, I was a vegetarian for 20 years once I went to college and I tasted store bought meat, and it was disgusting. Like, I still go to the farmers market every Sunday. I would never think not to have go to a farmers market. For me, that's an Olympia thing. And I remember when it was like four boxes, full of potatoes with you know, 1000 eyes on them. What else do I bring? I suppose that’s it, just my commitment to community and my love of vegetables.

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Kelsey Smith  19:06  

I think that's perfect. Do did you used to go to the co op back then?

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Candice Pedersen  19:11  

Oh, yes, I'm a lifetime member. I became a member of the co op when I was in Seattle, and they don't really have a co op here. But what I can't get at the farmers market I get at like a hippie market, other than sugars and stuff like that. Yeah, I would never not have a co op or something like, there's a hippie market. We call it a hippie market. That's probably a leftover of Olympia that I go to called Sprouts.

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Kelsey Smith  19:54  

So what about some relationships. Do you have relationships from your time in Olympia that continued today? Or you can also talk about relationships that, you know, it may you know if they're not with us, or like, yeah.

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Candice Pedersen  20:15  

So the relationship thing is on a spectrum. And that's just true when you're 57 years old (I had to remember) you know, so when I think about relationships, for how they function today: this weekend I was at a memorial service for my friend, Jeremiah, Jeremy. And there were people there, who I had not seen in 20 years. And we just started talking. And that's a relationship where I say, yeah, I've been friends with him for 30 years. I haven't talked to them for 20. But it just goes. And so I have probably 70% of my relationships are relationships that start and stop when you see the person or you think of something that reminds you of them. And one of the things I love about social media and about internet, it's like, I can ping something to someone and be like, “Gosh, I was just thinking about you.” I’m not necessarily going to do that as easily if we're just doing snail mail. Then there are the people from Olympia, there's a group of people who I am deep friends with. Julie Faye, we actually were kind of loosely on the spectrum. For a number of years we did not know we lived like four blocks away from each other in Seattle until one day it snowed, I posted a picture and she's like, “I have that same view from the other side.” Turned out we are neighbors, right back up to being tight- tighter than when we were in Olympia. There's, of course, my friend Adam [Shea]. He was my first boyfriend, my first real boyfriend in Olympia. He was in a band with Justin Trosper and he's one of the most important people in my life. Nikki McClure, I don't see her very often when I do, it's wonderful, beautiful. So I see Adam all the time. Scott, Olympia days, he's my husband, I see him all the time. I talked to Tobi and you know, it's just all over the place. And I really love that. But I don't think that's unique to Olympia. I think that that's unique to people who want to retain friendships. Now, I definitely know lots of people who, I don't know why, but they stopped being friends with people. You know, they have lives, I'm not saying that, but like, they stopped being friends with old people and new people. So one of the things I'm really conscientious about is I always want to make new friends on different spectrums, just trying. It's harder here. There aren't as many weirdos that I can find. But when I'm not working from home, I'll find them. And then there's the relationships that dissipated, naturally. And then there's relationships that dissipated for all the right reasons, but not naturally. [laughs] They just had to end. Do you want me to talk about specific people at all? Or I mean, can I?

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Kelsey Smith  23:48  

Absolutely. Can we go back to- so the people you you were mentioning first, for the record?

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Candice Pedersen  23:58  

So, I mentioned Adam Shea. He was- what was the name of his band with Justin-  Semiconductor? Yes. So he was in that. He did a fanzine, he’s gonna kill me for not remembering the name- see, this is where I'm just awful- But anyway, someone will know that [and] remember it. Tobi [Vail] will remember everything. [laughs] So I had mentioned Adam Shea... Julie Fey, she is somebody I just admired before I knew who she was. She was pre-me from Olympia’s scene. Oh, Tobi Vail, I apologize. I mean, Tobi’s Tobi. I never think of her as Tobi Vail. Our friendship is probably more of a friendship today than even before I left Olympia, because we are always in- ironically, we still are- in different places in our heads and our brains, our hearts, but we have a lot of very shared interests. And so I find myself connecting with her more and more, you know, through Instagram or DMS and stuff, but she's definitely more intellectual than I am. And so I always feel a little like “Aaaah, I'm so stupid-” not stupid, but silly.

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Kelsey Smith  25:45  

And your husband's full name?

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Candice Pedersen  25:47  

Oh, my husband's full name is Scott Plus. And so he's from Tacoma- or Tacoma? I wish! Portland. And we met at IPU. So that's where he comes in.

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Kelsey Smith  26:00  

Great, thank you. Yeah. And feel free to keep talking about it if you want to.

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Candice Pedersen  26:06  

Well, I don't think it's an elephant in the room. Because I know I'm going to talk about it. Of course, Calvin [Johnson] was a friend of mine for very many years. He was my business partner. That relationship- and we'll take a drink of water first, because that's some words.

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Kelsey Smith  26:25  

And if you can, when you come back, start over and say his full name if you don't mind.

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Candice Pedersen  26:31  

Okay.  So I knew Calvin Johnson, or knew of him before I met Calvin Johnson. I think a lot of people maybe besides his mom would say the same thing. I remember I would take the bus when I was a senior in high school to downtown Olympia and back. That's all, like I’d take the bus downtown and then back to the high school and take my bus home, just so I could see weirdos.  And I would see this young man who seemed like an old man to me, because I was 16. And I remember he’d wear this pink sweatshirt but I don’t remember what it said, and like pearls, and I just thought “that's so striking, I like that.” So I'd see him around. And even though we all went to Evergreen, I didn't need any of these people because of Evergreen. I met them because of music. I don't really have many friends from my actual college classes, if any. But we were all at Evergreen at the same time. He's a few years older than me. And of course, I got into music… so I met him in 1983 at shows. I don't know how I started my internship at K. But when I was a junior, starting my junior year of college at Evergreen- so this would have been the fall of 1985- I realized I was done with school, I didn't want to take any more classes. It's not like I felt like I'd learned everything. It was just I couldn't go to school anymore. So I created my own curriculum, which you could do at Evergreen at the time, I don't know if you still can. And it has to be approved, “This is great.” And I was going to study- The first thing I think was women in rock. So I could create my own curriculum, and I would do an internship with Calvin at K. And at that point, I think the first cassette had come out, or maybe one or two things, there was very, there was no catalog. It was more of a distribution and a couple of items and a couple of its own products. And I would work there, I think 20 hours a week as my internship, answering mail, stuffing cassettes, that kind of thing. And oh! I have another weird artifact that I found, it was my first review from Calvin of my internship. And it should have been a huge red flag for me because he was snarky and irreverent and trying to be funny, and this is my college transcript. His inability to imagine what my needs might be were clear from day one. And it's not his fault, it's mine. I didn't pick up on it. He absolutely showed me who he was, and I just went for it anyway. So that was my first review and I have, like, the paper it's on and the little cut out and I don't even think it's funny today. Like, I think about it and I'm like… “You're not putting yourself through school or life.” I'm putting myself- you risk it. ‘Cause I thought it was [like] he's trying to be funny or it's okay. You know, I tried to justify it in my brain. And my God, on the one hand, if I paid attention to it, my life would have been totally different. On the other hand… I like the life I have, so I guess I made the right decision. [laughs] So I did that. I did that for my junior year of college and my senior year of college 1985, ‘86, ‘87. Then I graduate, I'm still doing K records full time. In the summer of 1989, I left the label and I was very frustrated with Calvin. Again, all the signs are there, but I just chose you know which ones to follow. And I left and I went to San Francisco. I moved down with my friend Jeffrey, who had been my roommate, Jeffrey Kennedy had been my roommate at Olympia. He'd also been in this band called Flowers for Funerals. He introduced me to Madonna, he introduced me to Morrissey and the Smiths, I have him to thank for so much. And also now we both don't like Morrissey or Madonna, so there's that. So we all drove down. It was, I believe, Jeffrey Kennedy, and just myself, maybe… Oh, no, and Donna Dresch! It was the three of us. So we moved to San Francisco that summer. And I had given Calvin an ultimatum: Either I'm a partner in the business, or I'm not. You know, it's not a threat. It's an ultimatum because my thing with him was, why would I work so hard for somebody else's vision? Because he was touring more. And so with Calvin away and stuff, I was really running the business. And at the end of that summer, between the pre-earthquake that happened before the huge earthquake, and Calvin saying, “Hey, I need you to come back,” I left town, I got on the Greyhound bus and I went back to Olympia. I want to say it was the week before that big earthquake in San Francisco, which I think was September-ish, maybe August. I was back in Olympia. While I was living in San Francisco, I worked with Donna Dresch at Rough Trade records (the label) and I was living in this great house with Barbara Manning, who was a musician. And her sister- oh, I’ve got some Barbara Manning in stories. She’s a lunatic, but very, very talented. I went down there and I came back and then I did K full time from the fall of 1989 until the summer of 1999. And I grew that label. 

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Kelsey Smith  34:32  

Maybe that ties into the next question a little bit, which is- tell us about some of the projects that you're most proud of from your time in Olympia, and that could include K Records.

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Candice Pedersen  34:45  

Well, K Records is the only thing I did the time I was in Olympia, I think, other than little side things here and there. I'm not a musician. I'm not an artist. I'm one of those people who love and appreciate art and music and writing, but I don't have those skills. I get involved in these scenes, but you know, I'm a fan. Or I guess I'm not just a fan. I'm also a generator about punks because I did have the label.  

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Can you rephrase the question again?

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Kelsey Smith  35:32  

Yeah, so it's just talking about projects that you're most proud of from your time in Olympia.

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Candice Pedersen  35:41  

The projects I'm the most proud of are- and I'm not gonna say everything because, you know, my mom had six kids, and she did not like all of us the same. So you'd count like all your babies the same- everything to do with Heavenly, and Talulah Gosh. I don't know if I'm proud, or if I'm just so honored to have gotten to do that. And one of the ways we worked with Talulah Gosh was in the summer of 1990, I went to England for the first time, I went to Europe for the first time. And I had heard that Talulah Gosh were becoming Heavenly. Calvin and I had heard that they were up to some things. And we knew Everett True, both of us knew Everett True and I met with Everett while I was there. And I was like, “Hey, I want to call the Talulah Gosh folks, the Heavenly folks (then Talulah Gosh) about maybe working with us or distributing or something, how do you do that?” And so he gave me their number. And I remember I call up and Amelia answers the phone, and I was stunned. Because in my mind, they were so famous and so huge, that I assumed somebody would answer their phone for them. [laughs] It just was like, because if I knew of them, they must be famous. Though it turns out, they answered their own phone. And so we talked and you know, building that relationship, I'm not saying I'm the only one who built it by any means. Calvin built that relationship too, I would never assume that. But I know I played a part in that. And same with a relationship with The Pastels, with KARP. I think maybe the thing I carry the most is that I learned after the fact- more than I understood in the time -that all of these bands that we worked with, saw me equally as they saw Calvin. And I was led to believe from Calvin, that I was much less integral than I actually was. And it's only when I left that I saw, “oh, I brought in a lot of these bands because they're, they're not there. I remember talking about the Melvins, and I was a Melvins person. I was the Melvins fan, not... I don't mean to sound combative. I just liked rougher music, it seemed like and connected with it more than Calvin did. And so that's something I really pulled into. So that's probably something I brought. And I think some people would think I would say I was proud of the International Pop Underground Convention, but I wasn't proud of it. I was just glad it happened. So it's not one of my proudest moments. [laughs]

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Kelsey Smith  39:15  

You did kind of make it happen, though.

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Candice Pedersen  39:20  

Yeah, yeah, yeah! But...it doesn't come up in my list of things I'm proud of. It's not that I'm not proud. It's just like, I'm just glad it happened. Like, that's really cool. And it was purely for selfish reasons. Calvin and I wanted- me, in some ways more than Calvin because at least he could see bands on the road- We wanted to see our friends play in a fun situation and be able to spend time. So I know when we did the convention, people thought it was cute or coy or twee, because we had a picnic or a cakewalk, and the pet parade. But that was just what we did in our city. So if you're going to come to our city, why wouldn't we want to show you the way we live? That's what it was, that was all.

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Kelsey Smith  40:19  

Just an observation that you- I'm going to edit this out, but like -you are someone that you use strike me just from what I know about you and from talking to you as someone that works really, really hard to make things happen, but doesn't always see, like, what an amazing thing you did. 

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Candice Pedersen

Oh, thank you.

Kelsey Smith  You did a lot of amazing things. So like, there are lots of things you should be proud of.

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Candice Pedersen  40:54  

Thank you. I'll take that. I'll take that, because I don't know that. I think a lot of people are that way because they think if they can do something, then it's doable. And it's like, no, that's not really true.

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Kelsey Smith  41:11  

Yeah, not everybody can make things like that happen. I am similar to you, where I'm kind of like a little bit in the background, and I make things happen. And I'm not particularly one thing or the other, but like, you know, I make something continue to happen. 

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Candice Pedersen  41:30  

Yeah, I can definitely make things happen, whether you want them to or not. [Kelsey laughs] And maybe it's because I'm just not that intellectual. Like, I'm a very smart person, I'm not trying to put myself down. I know, I'm really smart, I'm erudite, I'm all of those things. But I'm not an intellectual, I've always been like, I don't enjoy reading philosophy, like I'm just not. but I think that serves me well, because I will make big decisions and hard decisions really easily. And then if they're bad decisions, I will just move on.

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That said, of course, I should have left K records long before I did. And I'll dig into that a little bit if that's- let's go into that. So, when I finally left K records,  and I had been going back and forth for many years. Well, I'm going to step many steps back. So, 1989- we agree our partnership’s 50/50, we're going to be partners.  We each get paid a little bit, but neither of us make much money from the label at all. I mean, when I left K records in 1999, I probably made more money than anyone I knew besides Calvin, and I made $2,000 A month, $24,000 A year, nobody I knew made that much money. I was rolling in it. So it was like, this was never a high paying gig in retrospect. [laughs]

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But we're going to be partners, 50/50. You know, that's, that's it, what it's all about. And then in around- you know, a lot of things happen. We put out some great records. You know, there's just bands I’m just so proud to have worked with, and couldn't believe. I say about the 50/50 partnership- this was probably in like 1995 or ‘96. So we actually have done well enough. We have grown, we've got employees. And Calvin goes “50/50? It's 90/10, that's what we agreed to.” And I looked at him and I said “In what world- so it's 1996, I've worked now you know nearly 10 years- in what world would I work this hard for you?” I knew we had a 50/50 agreement, we had worked under that principle since I came back. Either he misremembered or he chose to misremember. So in the background we decide, we start talking- I, to a lawyer. I think Calvin to his brother who is a lawyer- and trying to negotiate to something we can agree to. The final agreement was 75/25. And the reason for that on my part was twofold. One was, because this took a couple of years, the effect it was having on the people who worked at the label and on the bands that Calvin and I were no longer getting along. I was fed up with him for many reasons. But it was the first time I was fed up with him for something that affected me. I didn't like how he treated people in the past, I didn't like how he treated women... blinders on all the time. But finally, I got fed up with how he treated me. And so, we're working at a number, we get the company evaluated. I, on the background, am negotiating my way out. And within our agreement, we each have first right of refusal. So if I was going to sell, Calvin could buy first. If he was going to sell, I could buy first. With these things in place, we finally got to 25/75. I knew there was nowhere else to go.  That was me giving up 50% of my split equity. So we signed that paper that says 25/75. And then- this is something I'm proud of, I looked at him and I said, “I'm gonna sell my part of the business.”

And he was stunned, which, for me, was an indication Calvin was so clueless, that he would actually think that after all that, I would still stay! The hubris! And the ego surprisingly shocked me. And it felt so good to shock him. That's a part maybe I'm not proud of. But it really felt good to stun him. And I sold the business back to him. (You know, you can cut the details here out, but...) The story is that our business was valued pretty well at the time. Because we had the Beck records, we had the Modest Mouse record, we were making good money and paying our bands- something you're supposed to do! Because they're the ones generating all the money for us. So it was a fairly valuable business. What I would walk away with was estimated to be $250,000.  A lot of money. It also meant I walked away from $250,000. And I gave Calvin these great terms, I would just be paid $2,000 a month until it was paid off.  So that's a number of years, but every month Calvin would not pay me on time. And he would make me call him and beg for my money- and this is how I perceive it- so he could have the upper hand. I really thought if- I became so much smarter after 35- I thought “if you need to have the upper hand in this conversation, you don't have it because it's not a game. You owe me money, it's my money.” But I got tired of the game. So after about the sixth or seventh month- I'm sharing this because it helps me understand who he is versus who I thought Calvin was- I said to him “Calvin, I'm I'm still fielding calls from Rolling Stone, Spin, a lot of fans, into what happened. If you don't pay me by have to ever call again to be paid, I will tell the story.” Within a month I have a check paid in full, which I assume came from his mother because she funded much of his stuff. To go from making the ask for $2,000 to pain the whole thing off in full? It’s bullshit. But this is where it's like, good decisions. That I'd enabled us to buy a house in Seattle. So that's what we did. We being Scott, my husband, and I, myself. So there's a story, and that's how that relationship ended. My animosity toward Calvin, I think it goes to what has been said about me and which is that I don't always stick up for myself as well as I stick up for others. And after I left K, I started hearing- not [just] hearing stories. Bands were calling me. Karp was calling me. Lync was calling me. “Why aren't we getting paid?” “What can you do?” “Can you help us?” And then the stuff with Kimya [Dawson] happened. And when I went to Calvin, I said, You're stealing, you're stealing from these bands. It's their money. Because he reached out, and I was like, “I can't be friends with you if you can't treat people right, because it's a disservice to all my other friends.” And we're at completely different belief points at this point. And it's sad that that broke up. But in retrospect, I don't think we were very good friends. I think we're very different. He has some good friends, I think he gels well with artists more than not. And the core of the people who truly are in my life, are people who are just basic, meaning honest. Like, not really in a game. It doesn't mean we're perfect or any of those things. I was also estranged from my father. And it's for the same reason I was estranged from Calvin- I don't let anybody else in this world treat me this way, so why would I let you?  It really came down to that in the end. And I don't think it's a bad thing. I think these things happen. What I do think as bad is I think K could have remained really interesting and relevant if I was still involved, or someone like me. Because the partnership, the complementary pieces of a partnership, those were really valuable. But I'm not sure if Calvin respected me, and I don't think I respected him. And that's a problem.

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Kelsey Smith  53:15  

Thank you for sharing that..I know that was difficult to talk about. And I just heard you earlier… you were like, well, “you can take this part out.” We're not gonna take anything out unless you want us to.

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Candice Pedersen  53:30  

Okay. I just didn't want to add a lot of detail that's like moot.

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Kelsey Smith  53:36  

Well, you can just hide you know, you're gonna...

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Candice Pedersen  53:40  

I'm good with all my words. All my words.

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Kelsey Smith  53:45  

I’m just reiterating that to you.

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Candice Pedersen  53:49  

I mean, the thing is- I don't know if my story is right. But I know it's how I remember things. 

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Kelsey Smith 

It’s your story. 

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Candice Pedersen 

And I know I'm not elaborating. There's no reason for me to make my story any different. I mean, there's a good reason to make it actually quite different than that, it'd be much happier.

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Kelsey Smith  54:15  

I'm sorry, that happened.

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Candice Pedersen  54:17  

Yeah, it's not unusual, though. You know, partnerships, they’re tough. And who you are at 23 and who you are at 33 and 43. Especially. This is… hopefully it's different. 

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Kelsey Smith  54:39  

Well, and you know that gender dynamics really play in. They still do.

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Candice Pedersen  54:46  

That is huge, and I'm only recognizing it now. Yeah, I mean, I've always been very passionate about gender dynamics, and gender politics. Like as a little kid- I remember I was telling a friend the other day I hated Anita Bryant… I was probably four years old when she was on her rampage against gays, and anti E.R.A. So these things were always present for me. What I don't think I recognized was how they played out in my life while I was living it. And that's from Calvin, that's for me, that's from my girlfriends, that's from the bands, all of us contributed to those dynamics without thinking as much as we should have. Now, I think about someone like Kathleen Hanna, or Tobi Vail, and they were. But most of were pretty lazy.

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Kelsey Smith  56:15  

All right. Okay, so we kind of talked through some of this question, but I'll read it to you, just in case you had anything else you wanted to add. I feel like we I feel like you just kind of covered a lot of this. But you spent 13 years as the co owner of K Records. What are some some memories of your early days with the label? And how about the later years? Were there any other things you wanted to add to that question?

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Candice Pedersen  56:44  

Yeah, I’ll add some things. So the early years, they were really fun. Because we were just in a room, we were in Calvin's apartment at a table answering letters. I'm shipping off records. I had never been anywhere. So like I had mentioned earlier, I read a lot, and I particularly read about New York City. I was obsessed with New York City, I was obsessed with anything Jewish, I was obsessed with anything black, basically everything that's not Olympia. And not because I hated Olympia, but it was like these worlds. And so when we would get letters and money, like little, you know, checks or $3 for a single from all of these places... not just New York, but you know, Marietta, Georgia, and Knoxville, Tennessee, and Spain, it was just like, I was suddenly connected to this world I never knew I could so easily be connected to. Because in my family, life was always put out to be hard. It was impossible to do anything. Like, back to that first time I went to Europe for K Records, I was like “Oh, you could just go to Europe, people do that.” I did not realize you could do that. So it was just really fun to get the mail, and the little packages. I remember the first time we got a check from Thurston Moore. Again, it’s like my story about Amelia Fletcher from Talulah Gosh. I was like, “What's he doing writing a check?! He's famous!” My God, you know, “he's in the biggest band in the world next to the Rolling Stones.” You know, to me, they were huge. I loved all of that. And then I would love as people, as the world started coming to us- because I still wasn't traveling- someone would come into town for a week and you’d get to hear about their world. You know, it might be Everett True from Melody Maker, or whatever magazine he worked for, I can't remember, I think it was Melody Maker. Or just a fan from Germany. They would come to town, they would sleep on your floor and I would learn about this other life, this other town. And to truly watch K grow organically. And then to be able to have employees, so other people got to do what job they liked and work- y’know, we were “the man,” so work for a different man, but not work for “THE MAN.” I was really proud of that and really pleased that we were growing that way. And in the later years, I think there are great things there too. When we moved into the big office building and finally weren't above The Chinatown, that was awesome. That just felt very adult. I'd never had a plan so it wasn't a dream come true. But like, all of a sudden I'm a business person who is in an office building, and has employees. That just just seems pretty cool. And then to behave the way you'd want to behave once you became a boss, or to behave the way you'd hope you would when you had some authority. That felt good to realize I didn't... it doesn't mean I wasn't tough. I had to layoff friends, I had to fire friends, for not being great workers. But doing it in a way where we're still friends? That kind of getting to rewrite some rules was really cool. But it was time to go.

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Kelsey Smith  1:01:16  

The office building? Was that the upstairs on Legion Way?

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Candice Pedersen  1:01:21  

We started in Calvin's apartment and then upstairs on Legion way at The Chinatown restaurant, so it's called The Chinatown. We had the offices above that, the restaurant. And no that wasn’t Legion Way, that was Fourth Ave.  On Legion way was the big office building that became the brewery. I'm forgetting, something fishes…

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Kelsey Smith  

Fish Tale.

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Which is kind of ironic, since neither Calvin nor I drink. I do drink now, but I still don't drink beer. But yeah, that was a beautiful building, too. It was a really cool building.

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Kelsey Smith  1:02:05  

Not to talk about myself, but that's when I moved to Olympia. One time I got to check it out, and that was because of Community Print. I don't know if you remember Community Print.  A print shop, kind of informal.

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Candice Pedersen  Yeah, yeah!

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Kelsey Smith  So yeah, I run Community Print now. So talking about...

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Candice Pedersen  1:02:27  

Oh gosh, still!

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Kelsey Smith  1:02:29  

[inaudible] forever and like, you know, being that person, I identify with you that way! [laughs] Like making things continue to happen where  they wouldn’t otherwise, so… But yeah. Community Print is not up there anymore.

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Candice Pedersen  1:02:48  

What is in that building?

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Kelsey Smith  1:02:51  

It's the Knitting Mills now. So there's artists up there again. 

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Candice Pedersen  Oh, that's so great! 

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Yeah, the Fish Tale moved out because of the landlords. The Fish Tale Pub is still there, like the restaurant.

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Candice Pedersen  1:03:06  

Oh, the restaurant wasn't there when we were there.

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Kelsey Smith  1:03:10  

Yeah, the brewing is gone. But yeah, upstairs there's… do you remember Hukee? J. Hukee?

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Candice Pedersen  1:03:24  

I don't think she rented from us when I was there. 

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Kelsey Smith  1:03:29  

No, this is... she's in there now. She also does like letterpress printing and Kitty Koppelman. Do you remember Kitty?

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Candice Pedersen  1:03:37  

That name’s very familiar. Such a good name.

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Kelsey Smith  1:03:41  

They share they share the space where Community Print used to be and then there's

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Candice Pedersen  1:03:45  

Oh, that's so nice, that there's a good legacy in that building.

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Kelsey Smith  1:03:49  

Yeah, I love that building. I have a lot of fond memories of that building.

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Candice Pedersen  1:03:54  

Me too, we had some great parties there.

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Kelsey Smith  1:03:57  

It's a very cool building. So okay, I think we talked about your memories about K. So why don't we move on to the International Pop Underground Convention.

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Candice Pedersen  1:04:14  

Okay.

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Kelsey Smith  1:04:17  

so, can you talk about how IPU came to be? Can you speak to the idea of IPU being identified as a convention or conference rather than a music festival? Sorry about these two part questions.

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Candice Pedersen  1:04:35  

I can first of all talk about IPU as a convention/conference/festival dynamic, because I don't know, I don't recall having a good enough conversation around the distinction of the nomenclature when I think about why we called it a convention. What I do remember this distinction being, in my conversations with Calvin, was that we wanted it to be a thing where our friends, or bands we liked who weren’t our friends yet, could play and could stay so we could spend some time. It goes back to “here's our town, why not get to know us and enjoy it the way we enjoy it.” But I don't recall that I had an understanding that there was a distinction in the different names. I did know that there were things- music conferences or festivals, like CMJ, where lots of bands come in, they play and they go out. And we didn't want that, for sure. I knew what kind of event we wanted. Calvin probably was the one who had a sense of distinction around the naming. Convention, no pun intended. So that's an easy one to answer. The formation of having the big events, I feel like we started talking about it about a year before we hosted it in the summer of 91. So we probably started talking about it around the time I'd been in England that fall of 1990, when I first went to see Heavenly and Pastels and all of those folks. And I feel like I don't- this is where I wish Calvin were chatting with folks, because I don't remember that it was a complicated conversation or big, like, “let's put on a show!” It was like, “Okay, we're going to have the IPU and it's going to be in August, I do recall that that date was very important. Something important to me [was] the design of the blackberry. That was, to me, that image sums up Olympia in August, it's blackberry season. Even growing up, all of August you spend picking blackberries, your fingers are stained. And I knew that I wanted Nikki to create the image, because she would do such a beautiful job. And it really is quite iconic. I mean, if I were ever the kind of person to get a tattoo of a thing that, you know, a memory or something that would be those blackberries, but I did not. So then it just started being talking to bands and seeing who could come out and play. I think Calvin definitely talked to more bands than I did, because he was on the road, that kind of thing. But we were in agreement of who we were adding and not adding.

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And it definitely seemed like without a doubt Fugazi was gonna play. Without a doubt, you know, Beat Happening was gonna play. There was some bands where it's like, Girl Trouble, you're not going to do this without them. And then it was more like, who do we want and how do we make sure that their schedule can get them there. All of the bands came out, there were no contracts. You know, I'm sure we said we can pay you $200. We'd hoped we would make enough money to pay the bands to perform, but there were no contracts, there was no $1,000 deposit, it was just putting on a show. But it was with tens of bands over multiple days. We didn't think about it much more beyond that. In retrospect, if anything had gone wrong, we both probably would have been so fucked. [laughs] Because we were responsible for it all, it's not like we had show insurance, those things weren't a thing. And then we just knew what we wanted to incorporate. Like, if you want to have it around the pet parade, well, then that's the weekend, so you could back into things pretty easily.

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I do know there's been a question around when did we decide to do Girl Night. And I will say we never came up with that idea, that came to us from the women who planned it. And I actually remember being angry that it was put on the first night. Because I feel like that was a Tuesday or something, it was in the middle of the week. I thought it was really sidelining them. Like, why couldn't we get- I know we were going to have Nation of Ulysses and Fugazi on Saturday or whatever, on the big night, but if I felt like it was sidelining when I look back, I'm going to assume Calvin was like, “No, it should be the first night because it's important.” And I'm gonna give him that benefit of that doubt, because… Because I hope that's why. [laughter]

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But we cannot take any credit for that night. That was people asking for an opportunity that they shouldn't have even had to ask for, frankly. In retrospect, I'll say always, I always say, “oh, in retrospect,” I should have. That should have been number one, I'm ashamed. 

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And then the bands that performed, really the women put all of that together. They put the look, the feel, everything about it together, they get all the credit. Again, that is not something I'm proud of. But it's something I'm so lucky to say I was there. The music was good, the energy was right. So like if Calvin thought, “oh, we should do it the first night because it sets the tone,” then he was dead right. So I hope that was the reason it was the first night, not my thinking, which was “oh, it’s sidelining” because it wasn't. It set the tone for the week, and kind of for the next era.

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Kelsey Smith  1:12:20  

So yeah, I've read a lot of things that said that it was basically your idea. So that's really interesting for me to hear that it was not your idea. 

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Candice Pedersen  

No, no, not at all.

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Kelsey Smith  Do you want to talk a little bit more? Now that you've said that, do you want to talk about some of the driving forces that you think made that evening happen? The names?

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Candice Pedersen  1:12:43  

Lois helped. Lois Maffeo. Margaret Doherty. They were people who help with some of the art that we Michelle May or no, Michelle Noel. I apologize, Michelle Noel. A driving force, that crew of women made it happen. And I feel bad that I can't remember the names of all the people involved because as the years go on, something that happened over three months feels like it all happened in a day. I would say Michelle Noel and Julie Larry and Diana Arens but maybe that's not everyone. Maybe Diana didn't land until a year later. You know, it's like I can't remember the details. But it was those Olympia Riot Grrrls, or those women meeting- I don't even know if they were calling themselves or if they ever called themselves Riot Grrrl. But that unit of next generation people from myself. They were the driving force. They were the spirit of that. We were a conduit.

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Kelsey Smith  1:14:18  

Do you have any fond memories of of specific things that happened that evening that, for you, were particularly amazing?

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Candice Pedersen  1:14:28  

Rose Melberg was stunning, I remember that. It was just more the whole night than it was any artists. Though, Rebecca Gates, and I'm not saying this because my husband was also in the band, but The Spinanes. Rebecca Gates was great, too. And it was because she's just a little more polished. She stood out because it was like she already had a perspective of who she was as an artist. And so the art came through so much stronger. It was punk but in a different way than some of the like, “let's just be scrappy” that was also on display. It was just the whole night, it felt like you didn't really want it to end. But obviously it did. It was just really great. And it did feel special.

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Kelsey Smith  1:15:45  

Thank you. Okay. I only have a couple more questions. So if there's other questions you want to add, feel free. I'll let you know what the remaining questions are. Like, Girl Night is considered by many as the beginning of the Riot Grrrl movement. Do you remember when you first conceived of it? [laughter]

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Candice Pedersen  1:16:08  

I never was a Riot Grrrl or in their meetings. In fact, I heard retroactively that there was actually a meeting about me, because I was perceived as being- the word wasn’t “passive,” but it was something like that. And I just thought- this was a few years ago, I learned about it- I just thought, the audacity of youth, even though I was only four years older, was like, You guys have no fucking idea what I do [for you] to assume that I am not radical enough. Maybe I'm not, and maybe I am. But it's like, imagine people's lives for a moment, and we all have to make some decisions. So when I say I wasn't a Riot Grrrl, it's so funny, because the girls and the women involved in those activities will also say the same thing. Except that they were like, that's why it had the name. I was not only from in my opinion, [but also] from a generational perspective, I was already doing old lady things. I was already established in a full time job. 27 and 21 are really different, 57 and 51 aren't that different. But what you go through... I was just in a different phase. I'm also a naturally shy person, so I don't do group things anyway- not that I was invited, I can't say I was. But you know, you didn't have to be invited. If I wanted to participate I could have, but I didn't know how to do that. But I did think what they were doing was really cool. And I was so impressed. And I just thought they were just so smart and- not relentless, because that sounds negative- but, I'll just go with relentless. The people seemed very clear on what their intentions were, and I had not seen that since I was a child. 

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And you'd read and see about [Riot Grrrl in] Ms. Magazine, and in that whole era, that seemed similar to what I had witnessed- again, from afar, but as a child. And it was very substantial. I think it's interesting that so many of the people who participated run away from the title, whatever somebody wants to call something, it's just a thing. Because it was so substantial. I mean, believe me, if I could take credit for having been a participant I would.

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Kelsey Smith  1:19:44  

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Okay, thank you, so I already have one more question- and the last “question” is if there's any other things you'd like to talk about- but this is the last question. I was kind of struck by this quote from an article. You were interviewed in Rocker Girl many, many years ago. You said  “A little freedom is worth a lot of money.” Do you remember that? And do you want to talk about what you meant by that? 

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Candice Pedersen  1:20:20  

No, I don't remember it. What I suspect I meant by it was sort of the arrogance of youth in the sense that I had no responsibilities. So at the time- it's very easy to say that when we'd have like two recessions, that I didn't even know. Because when you're poor, and you're broke, and you're surrounded by poor and broke people who... a big deal might be going to get Thai food once in a while. None of what's going on around you affects you, because you kind of can't get- you know, as long as you don't have a drug habit- more poor and more broke. You're fine. But when you begin to have responsibilities, like maybe if I had a car, I'd realize that money was important, because I gotta put gas in the car. Or if then you up it and you have a kid, or you have a house... I wouldn't say that statement as a person who understands the world today. But all of that aside, I still do believe at the kernel that there are trade-offs. I'm never not gonna be myself for money. I might be a little less of myself for money, but at the core all my practices and what I'm going to say and how I'm going to behave is who I'm going to be. What I've seen-I've been in the world and I've worked for independent companies, and I've worked for corporations now for almost 20 years- is that I bring myself to it. And if you want to work with that, or you want to be with that- whether it's work or home or pursue fun life, then this is what you're working with. Sure, I've probably lost opportunities because of that, but that's okay. Because I'm not an actress, so I'm gonna have to be me. That is how I would address that statement today. When I've had a little life behind me. And more than that, now I think about it, I've seen other people have lives, because that's the statement of a selfish individual who's not looking at the world. I make a decent amount of money now. And I just love giving it away. Like, I have the ability to make a good income, so I feel like it's my responsibility to make that income and give it away. As long as I'm not doing anything that I'm against- like, when I was a consultant, I was like, “I won’t do porn. I won’t do cigarettes,” I'll consult on other things but these are the things I won't touch.

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Kelsey Smith  1:23:54  

I really like that. I feel like that what you just said it's very Olympia- like the giving it away and just [laughter] That head set, it's kind of-

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Candice Pedersen  1:24:06  

That's Olympia! Yeah, I mean… I hope Olympia still has this ethos, born and bred. But I feel very lucky if it doesn't have to have been around for it.

Some things are not negotiable. And like, you know, how you treat people. Like that comes from just being surrounded by a liberal arts college. You know, we would have students live with us. They always you knew “We're going out to the river to clean the junk out of it.” It's just always present. I wish more people knew about the school. If anything I think that's the most amazing thing to have ever come out of Olympia.

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Kelsey Smith  1:25:10  

I agree. So actually, I realized I skipped a question, and we can continue to skip this, but I feel like you might have just touched on the answer. And that was: why do you think Olympia became such a mecca for indie music?

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Candice Pedersen  1:25:25  

Twofold. Evergreen? Absolutely. And it was cheap. So The Young Pioneers could afford to have a house out in the middle of nowhere and play their music out loud. When I went to Europe, or just the UK in 1990, I went over with a friend. We each maybe had $500 for two months. But I brought a bunch of records and you'd go sell records. You could make a way because of the financial aspects of Olympia. And then the college was everything, because not only did it bring artists and musicians, but it brought professors and it brought intellectuals, it brought philosophers, and it retained them. So it also created an environment where you could stay. So you didn't have to be like “I'm going to art school in New York. But I'm a sculptor. I can't live in New York City. It's too expensive. I've gotta go to X.” You could stay in the town you were in.

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Kelsey Smith  1:26:51  

Alright, that's all of the questions. Aside from that, are there any other things you'd like to talk about?

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Candice Pedersen  1:26:58  

No, there isn't. I'm glad we ended on Evergreen because I actually do think that school is really stunning. And I mean, I didn't even have a wonderful [time].  I mean, I was totally at odds with the hippies all the time. But it's just such a cool school, that you could go in and as dumb as I was about the world, and still learn and be listened to. That's pretty amazing.

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