Tobi Vail:

It is January 24, 2023. I'm interviewing-- My name is Tobi Vail and I'm interviewing Beth Ditto for the Olympia Indie Music History Project. Hello, Beth. 

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Beth Ditto: 

Hello, Tobi. 

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Tobi Vail: How do we know each other? We should also probably get that out of the way before I pretend to be just like an anonymous reporter.

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Beth Ditto: [laughs] Oh, it's nice to finally meet you. We know each other from Olympia really. I don't remember the exact first time that I met you. But like, yeah, we know each other from Olympia.

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Tobi Vail: Yeah. 

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Beth Ditto: That's what I would say.

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Tobi Vail: I was working at Kill Rock Stars when you moved there. So that was our formal relationship. 

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Beth Ditto: Yes.

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Tobi Vail: In case someone's listening to this in the future, and everyone's dead and no one remembers anything like 100 years from now they're like, wait, these people know each other. How did they know each other? 

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Beth Ditto: I know you were working at Kill Rock Stars, but I feel like I'd seen you maybe in a band, or there had been a show before I'd gone to Kill Rock Stars because I didn't know where anything was or anything like that. So I know that we had to have had some kind of run-in. And I'm sure there was a moment when there was some star-struckness from especially my friends. They're like, [whispers] "That's Tobi Vail." I'm sure that happened. 

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Tobi Vail: Because I'm older than you so I was in bands before you, right.

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Beth Ditto: Yeah. Well, yeah. And your bands were the reason, and zines and things like that, were the reason why all my friends and I had moved up there.

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Tobi Vail: Okay, well we're getting ahead of ourselves. Let's chill out. Let's start from the beginning. I'm going to just pretend to be a reporter interviewing you. And then if you can remember, I know you're a professional, so you've had a lot of experience being interviewed, but if you can remember to say the question in your answer so that if someone wants to edit this for a story or something, it won't be just you saying yes or no. Just try to make it be a complete sentence. And if you forget, it's okay because we're going to be talking for a while so I'm sure they'll have enough to work with. 

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But the first thing I want to say is I want to thank you for making the time to do this. I also want to acknowledge your extraordinary gift as a singer. 

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Beth Ditto: Thank you.

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Tobi Vail: And I congratulate you on all of the things that you've accomplished.

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Beth Ditto: That's really sweet. That brings tears to my eyes. [laughs] Thank you. That really does make me teary, because that's what happens when you get older. You're like, oh, my God, thank you. Thank you.

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Tobi Vail: I'm curious about your early childhood influences and a little bit about your upbringing. The question is, how did music become such a central part of your life?

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Beth Ditto: I love that question because I love talking about this part of growing up. I grew up in Arkansas. I grew up in a very small town called Judsonia. And my family was very very into music. I was super lucky. I always said that my family is like this insane, very strange, creative, liberal, I guess for lack of a better word, very open and loving island. Dysfunctional albeit, but very very original. And we were just, we were the family of weirdos in a way that I didn't see other families that were like this. 

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My dad was very into music. We didn't have-- There were times that we didn't have food on the table but my dad would go to rent-to-own places-- I didn't realize this at the time that we were renting to own them until recently my sister told me. But I'm from a big family. I have 6 siblings. I have 2 sisters and 4 brothers. I didn't realize that we would rent-to-own. My mother did not like this. My dad would rent-to-own [an] incredible music setup in the house. So we had the best record player, the best speakers, the best whatever knobs you could turn because my dad loved tech things and he was really into sound. And my mother hated it because we were not eating food. 

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But there was a thing that she was such a big music fan in the way that you would walk into the living room and there would be-- I remember when Creedence came out with a box set that you could buy over the television and my mom got that for my dad for Christmas, and walking into the living room, I must have been four years old so this is like 1985 and we lived in this really old rickety house and I was sitting on my mom's lap. I sat on my mom's lap in the rocking chair and the record's spinning. No one's saying a word. We're all just listening to Creedence because dad had these incredible speakers and mom had surprised him with the box set. And that was the thing. It was like, it could be raucous. It was a house full of kids but we would all sit around and just listen to the music. And things like my mom walking-- The whole thing about that story is I slid off my mom's lap and landed on the floor and skipped my dad's new record. And you would have thought that I had spent the grocery money. It was not a good time to be me in that moment. But yeah, like that's one of my biggest memories. 

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But you know my brother played drums at 14. He quit school and he started-- The timeline is murky, but I know that around 14 he started playing drums with my older cousin's band who did the Tunica Casino Circuit. And so they would play with like Little Richard and Jerry Lee Lewis and all these crazy things. And my dad was at home at the VFW at the honkytonk, my dad did the sound there. 

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My mom could sing. So my brother played drums, my mother could sing, taught me how to harmonize. She was really into me having a good voice I guess. You know, I don't know. I don't really believe in bad or good voices, but she does for sure. And I think she saw that I was loud and I could carry a tune and that I could hold the pitch. I swear to god I do not know what those terms really mean. And she would just like pound that into me over and over again. So there was always music.  

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And my mom would put on headphones, but those big bulky '70s/ '80s headphones had come in, and my mom would just be like, just really listening to Pink Floyd so deep. My dad listened to the Bee Gees and he'd listen to Patsy Cline and Johnny Cash. And then my mom would listen to Black Sabbath and Pink Floyd. She knew a lot of folk-country, but she was such a rock mom. So there's all kinds of music going on. And you know my brother was listening to all this hair metal. 

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Then I was born in '81 so MTV came along right at the perfect time for me to be a really impressionable little kid. But where we lived it was really, really conservative Christian, and so the cable company that was also owned by the conservative Christian college-- Or really maybe not owned, but really-- What's it called when they have-- Controlled by them, dropped MTV and you couldn't get it anymore. So my mom got rid of MTV and got rid of cable. My last images were like these really cool things like "Like a Prayer" and "Thriller" and Boy George and "Girls Just Want to Have Fun." You know, really, really cool, solid, weird things that were really out there for my little town. 

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I always was really into it and I remember thinking, That's what I want to do. I don't know that as a little girl just being like, That looks fun to me. But of course you give up on that dream and you're like, [laughs] when you're a teen it doesn't seem like reality anymore. But yeah, that's what got me into music. My family was just really into it and they still are.

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Tobi Vail: Yeah, I guess my story is similar to yours. Like when people ask me like, when did you choose music? I was like, there was never a time without music. 

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Beth Ditto: Yeah! Exactly!

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Tobi Vail: I can't really picture a time or life without music because it was always a central part of my life. 

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Beth Ditto:  Yeah, because your dad plays music too right? 

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Tobi Vail: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. 

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Beth Ditto: Did your mom play music?

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Tobi Vail: No, but my granddad did. 

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Beth Ditto: Yeah. On your mom's side? The Tennessee side, right? Is that the Tennessee side?

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Tobi Vail: No. My dad's mother is from Oklahoma but her mother is from Arkansas. 

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Beth Ditto: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. 

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Tobi Vail: And it was on his side that they were musicians. On her side of the family and my grandma, my grandma and my granddad.

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Beth Ditto: I just feel like if there's nothing else to do, you know, you make music I guess. 

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Tobi Vail: Yeah. 

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Beth Ditto: Yeah.

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Tobi Vail: Do you remember when you first moved to Olympia? How old were you? And what did you know about Olympia before you got here?

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Beth Ditto: Yes, well I will try to make this short. 

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Tobi Vail: You can talk as much as you want. 

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Beth Ditto: It's really difficult because there's so many things. My friends always say, "You have this crazy need to feel completely understood, like that people can see exactly what you say in your head," and I'm like "I want to try not to do that." 

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In junior high I had met these really insane kids through a coworker's daughter, my mom's coworker's daughter. They lived in Searcy which was a town over, which might as well have been a world away especially at that time pre-internet. But we were just so happy to be into the same things and music but not like I had ever listened to, to the kind of pop music that I was into. Like I did not like Sex Pistols. I did not understand it. I was like, I don't get why this is supposed to be revolutionary. I'm like, have you seen Aretha Franklin? Mama Cass? 

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Then there was this whole thing where they were getting into like, I know this sounds so crazy, but I feel like a big part of what connected us was feminism and bouffants. Because I was really into bouffants because of the '60s and they were really into bouffants because of Huggy Bear and The Make-Up. I was just like, whoa. When I met them somehow it was like we got each other immediately. Most of us. So they were always in bands and putting on shows. And these were shows like maybe 15 people would come to, at the max, in our little town. 

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And so [when] I met them, that's when I started hearing of Olympia. And that's because Kathy was starting to entertain-- She's three years older than me so she was getting ready to go to college. There was a lot of talk about what she was going to do and she's definitely the most ambitious and academic out of all of us. So she was like, "I'm out of here. I'm going." So basically, you know, we hung around each other. We listened to each other's bands and we read each other's poetry and art and the things we were making and things like that. But when she moved to Olympia she would write these letters back to us being like, "Y'all, there's a show here every night. You're not going to believe it. There's a bus. We can take the bus, we don't need a car." You know and all these things. And in Arkansas you needed a car to go to shows unless they are the ones you were putting on. I will say Dub Narcotic did come to Searcy. They did come to Searcy.  And that's a big deal.

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Tobi Vail: What year was this if you remember? 

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Beth Ditto: When Dub Narcotic came? Oh, gosh. '95? 

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Tobi Vail: Okay. 

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Beth Ditto: '96? Maybe '97?

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Tobi Vail: So you saw Calvin Johnson, Chris Sutton.

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Beth Ditto: In the late '90s. Yeah, I met Chris when I was 14 or 15.

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Tobi Vail: And you were in Arkansas? 

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Beth Ditto: Yeah. 

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Tobi Vail: Where did they play?

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Beth Ditto: It was the Legion Hall. You know the Elks Lodge, not the Elks Lodge. We called it the Legion Hutt. It's the American Legion Hall. You could rent it out for 50 bucks on a Saturday night. 

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Tobi Vail: It was just a place--

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Beth Ditto: It was strange because it was in the circle where all the jocks and stuff would go cruising. So we would get yelled at a lot. But it was like right on that strip. That's where I met them. Yeah.

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Tobi Vail: And you knew they were from Olympia, or they told you or--?

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Beth Ditto: I never put it together. In my mind I knew they were from the North. I didn't know they were from the Northwest. Like to me Olympia was-- It was all Seattle for me because I was a teen at the age of grunge. This was groundbreaking. You know it never dawned on me till later, until I was 18 and I was on the plane. My friend and I were like, "Maybe we'll move to Seattle." You know, we're like 14,15 or something, and "Maybe we'll make it to Seattle." And I was like, yeah, and there's a whole other backstory about that too but-- They weren't friends with each other per se, but she was my friend from school. 

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So that was the other thing, I forget about that but music, it was grunge. Honestly I think that was a big part of it. I was really really good at dyeing my hair with Kool Aid, like incredible at it, like ahead of the game. Because most people were just trying to pour the powder on their heads. I was like, "No, you idiots. You've got to mix it with something. You need a thing. You need a thing." Anyway. So I was really good at that. That really gets you far. So like, it was that too. 

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I think it was a really incredible time to be a teenager in a way because-- I'm so glad you reminded me, made me think of that because I really will forget it sometimes and forget to connect them. That like, yeah we didn't have MTV and stuff but it was everywhere else. So grunge was a really big deal and because of them talking about other bands and the trickle down and stuff like that. And just like all of the really cool things that you were seeing on television that I'd never seen before. Not since the '80s that made me feel the same way. Do you know what I mean? That is so legit. And then here come these weirdo kids that were doing the same thing. 

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But not just that. For me, I was really into feminism because I was really into Gloria Steinem. I don't know how I really stumbled on her or whatever, but for them to be talking about the same thing was really crazy. It really blew my mind. I don't know what I was talking about, where I was going with that. 

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But yeah, so I met Calvin and I met Chris when I was a teenager. What I love about that the most is that now me and Chris have been all over the world together. And I think that's so insane. And I see his little girl all the time you know.

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Tobi Vail: Oh, right. So Chris Sutton, who was in Dub Narcotic then later became the touring bass player of your band The Gossip. 

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Beth Ditto:  Yeah. The Gossip. Yeah. And who knew? There's so much like that. I'm not like a woo-woo person per se, but I always feel like fate had so much to do with it because it blows my mind that it was always like, "Seattle. Yeah, let's go there." And then meeting this incredible person who is so smart and so ambitious and she's like, "I'm out of here." We all follow her. We end up in Olympia, you know. 

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And to me, Olympia was just the capital of Washington. It would blow my mind in high school when I was like, "I might go to Olympia and visit my friends." And people would say, "What's in Olympia?" I'd be like, "Well for one, it's the capital." They'd be like, "Where is that?" And I was like, "It's the capital of Washington State. How do you not know that?" Now I know. Now I'm like, I don't know what--

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Tobi Vail: Oh, it's just something you learn. You know, you have to learn the capitals you know.

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Beth Ditto: Yeah. 

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Tobi Vail: So you'd heard of it. But it was pretty far from where you lived. So how old were you when you came here? And how did you get here?

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Beth Ditto: I was 18. Kathy and Jeri especially were writing me letters every, you know, week or so because we didn't have a phone at my house. And so just being just like glued to that mailbox, just couldn't wait. And then once Kathy-- I don't remember if I was at my sister's house or if I was at my aunt's house, but somehow I was somewhere with a phone, and I had told her if I'm ever here from here to this date, I'll not be babysitting or something like that, like the times worked out, I was like you should call me and we can actually talk on the phone. So she did and she said, "Beth, I have a credit card." Bless her heart. And she's like, "I have a credit card. It has the such and such limit. Let's get your ticket booked right now to come to Olympia." And that was like, "Um, okay." She was like, "Okay. I can only afford one way." I was like, "All right." And she was like, "This is what we'll do. We'll just get you a job at A&W" (where she worked in the mall and where you could take a bus which blew my mind). "And you can earn your ticket back. If you want to go home you can. Just don't pay very much in rent or whatever." And so that's what we did. 

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And I moved there. They were living in Evergreen, the three of them Jeri, Nathan and Kathy and they were all living in her dorm and they called it The Nest. Two of them slept on the floor and Kathy slept in the bed. And all worked random jobs. At one point. I know they worked at a hotline. Which brings me so much joy. How funny that is. 

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Tobi Vail: She bought you a plane ticket or bus ticket or--?

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Beth Ditto:  She bought my plane ticket. Yeah. And that's the first time I've ever been on a plane. My plane landed in Portland funny enough because it was cheaper to fly to Portland than Seattle. Aaron Roth came to get us in his beater car that we hoped would make it there and back.  I think we went to Powell's right after I got off the plane. 

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Tobi Vail: Oh, wow. 

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Beth Ditto: Yeah, it was nighttime. I know that like when I landed it was nighttime or maybe just turning dark. I remember getting off the plane because the layover was in Texas. It was the first time I'd been to Texas. I remember getting off the plane and being like the air was so cool and just felt so good. You know being in Arkansas in June and just how miserable it was even at nighttime. You know, to get off the plane and just feel the difference already and just be so excited. And I hadn't seen them in months. 

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Tobi Vail: When you got here was it different than what you expected it to be like?

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Beth Ditto: Oh my God, I didn't know what to expect. 

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Tobi Vail: You didn't really know. 

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Beth Ditto: Number one, I think it's always so funny. One of my favorite stories I think about being in Olympia is that I literally thought that every scene was like ours. I didn't know that Kill Rock Stars was an actual label that made records that paid people to be on there or whatever, like gave them whatever. I didn't know it was a business. I didn't know K was either because everything we had was so small. Nobody knew it but us. 

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And seriously, I'm not exaggerating, I did not realize what a big deal-- This may be fast forward a little bit getting ahead of myself, but I did not know what a big deal it was to be on tour with Sleater-Kinney until we drove to The First Ave in Minneapolis. And looking out there and it being bigger than anything I could ever imagine. And to myself in that moment being like, Oh, this is a lot different than I thought it was going to be. I thought it was going to be like our friends were when they came to town. I thought everybody was kind of a tape distro. I was really naive honestly and really Southern. Like I had no idea why people didn't wave to each other. I did not get it. I was just like, Oh, it isn't a lie that people just aren't as friendly here. You know that was harsh. That was really hard to learn. It still is sometimes for me to learn that, like you don't-- It's just different.

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Tobi Vail: Different kind of communication style.

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Beth Ditto: Completely different. And I did not get it. And no one could have prepared me because there's those little nuances, that you just didn't-- I was a tip machine though. I made fucking good tips, I'll tell you that. 

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But I think also, it was so incredibly free. I just remember feeling so free. Looking back on it now I felt really dumb at the time a lot because I didn't know what people were talking about. Or people would name drop a person and I didn't know who they were talking about. Or they would talk about a place or a band and I was always just like, I don't know what you're talking about. I felt really bad about that. Of course you do, you're 18, you're really just fresh off of the turnip truck. Now in retrospect I realize how helpful that was and how great that was and how awesome it was for everyone to have their place in a way. Nathan knew everything and Kathy was really bookish and really practical and you can always go to her if you like-- She can answer the questions that Nathan couldn't answer. I was really lucky to have these completely different kinds of people. I learned so much. 

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I guess the point I was trying to drive home is just like how I didn't know what to expect really. I just thought it was going to be like our little weird Searcy scene and we'll see what happens. And boy, it was completely different in the best possible way. Not to mention I was dropped off right before Yoyo [a Go Go]. I flew into town right before Yoyo so to me, I'm thinking--

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Tobi Vail: Was it 1998? 

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Beth Ditto: So '99.

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Tobi Vail: '99.

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Beth Ditto: I remember me and Kathy saw Elliott Smith play and it was a big deal. You know? Like it was a really big deal. And Nathan had just gotten busted for shoplifting right before that. And me and Kathy, especially Kathy, was so pissed off at him for getting busted right before we were supposed to go see the show. We were like, "You're on your own. We're not missing Elliott Smith because of you [laughs] because you're so dumb." And so yeah, we left him there and we went to see Elliott Smith.

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Tobi Vail: Well I have to say that I just interviewed Carrie Brownstein yesterday and she brought up that same Elliott Smith concert.

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Beth Ditto: She did?

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Tobi Vail: Show at Yoyo. And I remember it too. And it was just an extraordinary thing to witness.

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Beth Ditto: It was. It stood out in my mind for so many reasons, but it obviously was such a special moment if so many people remember it for the same reason. Oh see? That's the thing about Olympia that you can't explain to other people. You can't explain how magical things are and how everything seems so right place at the right time, or something. The most important people I've ever met in my life were there and you stay with them forever. It really is strange. I mean that's not just my take. I'm sure there are people that run screaming and there are people that don't run at all or whatever. I did know those people that would be like, "This place is crazy. I'm out." I'm like, "Welp." You know, it was the most perfect--

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Towards the end of my years in Olympia in '03, I think I was there for 4 years, it got difficult. But it was just like, what's next? Like I didn't know what else to do.

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Tobi Vail: What do you remember specifically about the music scene? Like what do you remember about the shows you were going to when you first got here? Where were they? Do you remember at all what venues were around and were they at houses or--?

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Beth Ditto:  There was The Need. That's one of the first bands I ever felt so connected to.

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Tobi Vail: Can you describe them at all for someone who hasn't seen them?

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Beth Ditto: Oh my god. Yes I can. I remember Rachel [Carns] especially and I'm still such a Rachel fan. I'm such a diehard fan. I remember seeing her and her eyebrows were drawn on with Sharpie, these thick, crazy eyebrows. And I do believe she was wearing knee-highs and shorts but with a big jacket. And her hair had not brill cream, it was in that orange tub. Everybody was wearing it. What was that stuff? It was pomade that she had. That just so fit into place. 

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And before that I remember watching-- What was that video we watched? Miranda July was on it. Was The Need on it? But I remember I'd seen video footage of, I do believe it was The Need and also Kicking Giant (I learned about them second). But just seeing them in-person and being like, This is how they look every day? And they can't help it. You know? And learning the difference between performance and fucking weirdo and just how beautiful and strong that was and how inspiring that was. And to be in a place where I felt like so many people were doing that, we were all there because none of us could help it. That's the only thing we knew how to do or something. I don't know how to articulate it. 

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But then seeing them play, there was a thing where I think I feel like (and I could be wrong, my memory could be off), but I feel like there was talk of them always breaking up and this and that. And a big one for me, not to make you uncomfortable, one thing I always regret, I never got to see Bikini Kill until I saw you all's reunion. And that used to stick in my side. Ooh, it used to just eat me up. But it was like one of those things that you're like, I really missed-- You know, that's one of the bands I would have given anything to see. And I finally did and it was incredible. It was so funny, I just looked around and it would be like three people I knew but on each side of me. It was like a reunion for us too.

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Tobi Vail: So that was in 2019 in Los Angeles?

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Beth Ditto: Yeah. Los Angeles. Yeah. It was so fun because somebody was like, "Do you want to go say hello?" And I was like, "No way, man." It just felt so good to have that moment and being like, I just want to be in the crowd. It makes me teary-eyed again. I just want nothing to do with anything else. I just want to leave that there and then just be like, I just got to see that band and it was so incredible. 

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Yeah, so The Need was like that. When I finally got to see The Need it blew my mind. It was better than I thought it would be. I mean Radio is an incredible, incredible guitar player, and the incredible songwriters and everything they do together was so amazing. And everything they do apart from each other is so amazing. But there was something about Rachel like the way that she would set her drums up and play them. You know, she played the kick-- What is it called? The kick drum? The kick tom? Is it a kick tom?

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Tobi Vail: Kick drum.

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Beth Ditto: Yeah, kick drum. She played that with a floor tom. And to see all of that stuff was mind-blowing. And then there was also like, god, Tracy + the Plastics. Tracy + the Plastics?

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Tobi Vail: What do you remember about those?

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Beth Ditto: I just remember thinking like, Literally I don't think anyone's ever seen anything like this. I know I hadn't. And still to this day when I think about them, I'm just like, This is on another level. Do you remember there was the video that played behind her and she interacted with herself and different characters? So that had to be rehearsed, like really, really well down to the timing of the way the song ended. And you know, their conversations they were having with each other and not only was she interacting with the characters on the screen, but they were interacting with each other in the video, so everything had to be timed really perfectly. It was such a work of art in precision in this way. 

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But then also the songs were so, so heavy and so emotional and her voice is really beautiful. And it was all electronic. And that was something that I never really felt connected to either. I liked to mock it. Especially like my best friend is really, really into-- And there's Julie Ruin and things like that, but I'd never really listened to a lot of things yet. And then she came along and it made me realize that there's so much that I don't know about that I can't really make a decision about yet. She really changed my mind about a lot of things. But it was unpretentious and it was so earnest, really meticulous and just some kind of like down to earth high art moment. And it was really emotional and really, really high concept. I thought that was so moving. And especially now I realize that.

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Tobi Vail: Right, because she was kind of like a performance artist like performing these characters that were singing these songs using video. But then she was doing some of it live and she was interacting with different versions of herself? 

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Beth Ditto: Yes, yeah. Do you realize how crazy that is?

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Tobi Vail: I sort of remember. It was a very specific time and place thing. I remember kind of maybe seeing them at Dumpster Values one time or Thekla. 

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Beth Ditto: I don't know if I saw them at Dumpster Values. I didn't see that many shows there.

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Tobi Vail: Or maybe it was like Phantom City? In the old Phantom City when Zach started it. I don't remember exactly.

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Beth Ditto: Maybe. I only remember the old Dumpster Values. The old Phantom City. I don't remember the new one.

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Tobi Vail: That probably happened after you moved away. And then there was the Arrowspace right? Did you remember the Arrowspace?

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Beth Ditto: The Arrowspace where I got in trouble for letting people in for free because I didn't realize that you weren't supposed to do that. [laughs] Because I didn't know you were making money for bands. It never dawned on me to go to the next town or whatever. It never dawned on me. 

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I don't remember what band that was. I'm trying to think it was like Frenchie and the Germany Girls was a really big one. So the Arrowspace was all over it for a while. And then there was Ladyfest, but a lot of that happened at Thekla. And then there was Jake's. What was Jake's called before it was Jake's?

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Tobi Vail: Was it the Limelight? They added a couple different names. I was trying to remember that right before this interview. 

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Beth Ditto: The Bratmobile?

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Tobi Vail: Yeah we're thinking of the same show I think. Just to backtrack a little bit before that. 

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So you've been talking about Nathan and Kathy and they were your friends from Arkansas and they were in the original version of The Gossip. So did The Gossip form in Arkansas or did it form in Olympia?

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Beth Ditto: Olympia. I always tell that story and Nathan is always like, "Aaargh." He gets so irritated because I'd be like Nathan was too cool. He was too cool for me. Rightfully so because like I said, I didn't know what people were talking about. 

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Tobi Vail: You mean in Arkansas? 

‍

Beth Ditto: Yeah. Yeah. And in Olympia a little bit too. 

‍

Tobi Vail: But is he a little bit older than you too?

‍

Beth Ditto: Yeah, exactly. He always says that. He's always like, "You were 14 and I was 16. And so like, that's a big difference."

‍

Tobi Vail: I mean it is a big difference when you're a kid. Or it maybe sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't. You can make it a big difference.

‍

Beth Ditto: You can yeah. Yeah. It's you know, again, like I did not have any kind of coolness. Like, I was just like, derp derp. I mean, remember this too that by the time we had moved there, they all three, Jeri, Kathy, Nathan had kind of kicked their accents and that never even dawned on me. You know?

‍

Tobi Vail: Right. So when you got here they were not speaking in the same kind of vernacular, or they just didn't have accents?

‍

Beth Ditto: They started that before they left. [laughs] I think they really equated it with being country and stupid. Rightfully so. I mean look what we were surrounded by, of course. But there were just things that I was just like, whatever. But so they were really hip and aware in a way that I just wasn't. So I understand where Nathan was coming from completely, but I like to tease them about it. I like to remind them about it. It's funny after all these years, you know?

‍

Tobi Vail: What was it then about Olympia that made you want to start a band? Or did you want that already before you got here?

‍

Beth Ditto: Nomy Lamm was a big person for me. Nomy was a huge person for me to meet. I really felt like, I almost felt invincible. I had never been somewhere and never in my life thought I would go somewhere where I'd be told that my thoughts were worth anything. It's so silly. I don't know what's wrong with me. That my thoughts were worth anything, that my body wasn't garbage. That what was on the outside of me doesn't everything-- Or that my queerness was not just supported but celebrated. When it's like you spent your whole childhood grappling with that conversation between you and God, which didn't go away until I was 19 finally. For some people it lasts longer. 

‍

You know, to go to protests. That was another thing, that summer was so wild. I want to say maybe it wasn't that summer, but it wasn't long after that. There was WTO protests in Seattle. There was Yoyo. We had started a band.

‍

Tobi Vail: Yeah, I'm gonna say that was 1999.

‍

Beth Ditto: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So all of that was going on. So everything was like, what? I want to say it was an election year.

‍

Tobi Vail: Yeah, because 2000 George Bush was over I think. 

‍

Beth Ditto: Yeah. So there was all of this crazy shit happening that had never been discussed, confronted, talked about, even thought about, nothing in my life. I learned so much being dropped into that, into Olympia because there was so much happening. I mean, that's pretty crazy if you put it into the context of an 18-year-old who barely graduated high school and pre-internet. Didn't know hardly anybody, you're just being dropped in there with your friends. It's like, in retrospect and at the time, I don't think I realized it. But now I'm like, when I think about it, I'm like, Whoa, what a wild culture shock, really. And was so glad. I felt so glad that I got to be there. Just to be there around people who gave a shit about things that nobody else even thought about. You know?

‍

Tobi Vail: Right. Were you guys a part of the WTO protests?

‍

Beth Ditto: No. I remember watching it at home. 

‍

Tobi Vail: You knew about it.

‍

Beth Ditto: To [get to] Seattle remember how hard it was? It was so hard. I

‍

Tobi Vail:  I don't know. I still have a mental block about it. It's just like the freeway is very stressful. 

‍

Beth Ditto: Yeah. And not everybody has a car. 

‍

Tobi Vail: Not everybody has a car or a car that works very well. They just now started figuring out better bus systems in the northwest. I mean I know we have, as you said, inner-city transit. Because I'm from a small town originally too and we didn't have buses. And actually, the first time I lived in Olympia there were no buses. Like when my dad was going to Evergreen we had to hitchhike.

‍

Beth Ditto: Your whole family? 

‍

Tobi Vail: My dad would take me because people would pick us up if he had a little kid. [laughs] We had like one car but it would break down and you know, two parents so sometimes we'd hitchhike. But yeah, when I moved back to Olympia and there was a bus that was a really big deal. But still the Northwest doesn't have great public transportation like the East Coast. 

‍

Beth Ditto: Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, yeah. 

‍

Tobi Vail: Or like San Francisco or something like that.

‍

Beth Ditto: No. See? And now I know that like someone who's older and been other places. Like even Portland compared, now that I'm just looking back on that and being like, Holy shit, and being so excited is so funny to me. 

‍

Tobi Vail: Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I'm hearing you describe is that you were a part of a feminist, queer, political, creative community and those things helped you kind of get the confidence to want to start a band?

‍

Beth Ditto: I think just being asked. I'd never been asked. Kathy was like-- They were practicing for another band they were in because everybody's in a million bands there in the basement. And they were like, do you want to sing in our blues band? [laughs] I was like, "Yes, I do. I'd love that." And so I did. And then Nathan because being the Nathan that Nathan is, for the good or bad, in that moment was like "I set up some shows." And we wouldn't even know that he had done that. Then you would just be like, "Well I hope Kathy can get off work."

‍

Tobi Vail: Do you remember what the early musical influences were for--

‍

Beth Ditto: 510 Columbia. That was another venue people were playing at for a while. 510. Columbia Street.

‍

Tobi Vail: Was that the Midnight Sun? 

‍

Beth Ditto: No it was just like an empty storefront or something for a minute. Because Nathan was in Zombie Beat and Boy Pussy USA with Jeri I remember.

‍

Tobi Vail: Did that used to maybe be Moon Music? I don't really know. Or was it like John Kangas's Warehouse? Was there after parties there at Yoyo?

‍

Beth Ditto: No, no, not that I remember. I didn't get invited to any of those parties.[laughs] We didn't know anybody really. I didn't know anybody. 

‍

Tobi Vail: I have a memory of The Make-Up being in town probably for like Yoyo or something. And there was like a DJ dance party afterwards.

‍

Beth Ditto: I saw The Make-Up at Yoyo.

‍

Tobi Vail: A big warehouse or something? I don't really remember. 

‍

Beth Ditto: It was more of a storefront. I'm telling you. The actual address of it was either 810 Colombia or 510 Colombia.

‍

Tobi Vail: I mean I can walk over there and look.

‍

Beth Ditto: Right now actually. Go to your window--

‍

Tobi Vail: You have to understand, like, I've been involved in almost 40 years of stuff here. So like, something that happened in a four-year period I've probably forgotten a lot of it.

‍

Beth Ditto: Of course. Like, I just remembered that but also it was only four years for me and really formative ones. 

‍

Tobi Vail: For sure. That's why it's interesting having these conversations with people trying to put myself in the mindset. But just to get back to the musical influences, why do you think they wanted to start a blues band?

‍

Beth Ditto: Oh, because everybody was in The Band. That's what they called it at the time. I feel like it was-- Golly. Who was around? The Old Haunts I think were around back then. Let me think more about it because there was a lot of stuff.

‍

Tobi Vail: Maybe it was the Serum Greys? 

‍

Beth Ditto:  The Serum Greys. Oh, my God. The Serum Greys. It was all boys.

‍

Tobi Vail: The Old Haunts might have started by then. Yeah, I think Natalie Cox was their first drummer.

‍

Beth Ditto: Natalie Cox. Natalie is somebody that I knew, but not really well. There's a lot. I feel like she was the first of like, a lot of really sad things.

‍

Tobi Vail: Yeah, she died of cancer. 

‍

Beth Ditto: Really young and I feel like that was the first person I knew who was like, in our group of people.

‍

42:52

Tobi Vail: Yeah, and she worked at Kill Rock Stars. She was in a band called The Slatterlees (sp) with my sister. Before you know, The Bangs.

‍

Beth Ditto: The Bangs are a big part of it too. That's a very big part because that's the first tour I ever went on, The Bangs and Sleater-Kinney.

‍

Tobi Vail: Yeah, so after The Gossip formed-- Pretty quickly after you formed you got asked to go on tour with Sleater-Kinney?

‍

Beth Ditto: You know what? Yes. Wait, let me just say-- Sorry, to interrupt. You know why I think people were saying blues band is because we didn't quite know the word for garage rock. I think that's exactly what it was. In hindsight I really think that's what it was. Because when I think about it maybe Nathan would have, but Kathy's the one who came upstairs and was like, "Do you want to sing in our blues band?"

‍

Tobi Vail: Right. Well it makes sense. It's all the same core.

‍

Beth Ditto: It's really sweet to me though. I love to think about that. She was so excited too. So excited.

‍

Tobi Vail: Had she ever been in a band before?

‍

Beth Ditto: Yeah, she was in bands in Searcy all the time. But I don't know if she had in Olympia. There's a lot of stuff about that. You know, it's just a lot of that, with everybody when you think about that period of time, especially everybody being so young, everything being so new. 

‍

And then I feel like for Gossip especially. All of a sudden it was like one day we were playing The Arrowspace and then the next day we were going on tour with Sleater-Kinney and it never stopped. I just felt like it was like there wasn't even time to think about stuff. And I'm not complaining about it at all.

‍

Tobi Vail: You played like a lot of living rooms and basements and stuff.

‍

Beth Ditto: Yeah we played Kathy's house a lot. The place that I remember, like the Arrowspace sticks out in my mind. I can see the places because I remember just like loading in upstairs was so annoying. [laughs] If Kathy was here right now she'd be like, "Oh, was it? Was it annoying Beth?"

‍

Tobi Vail: You're the singer. Singers don't have to load as much equipment. The drummer has to load.

‍

Beth Ditto: I would try so hard to help though. But let's be honest, I did not do that much. I didn't.

‍

Tobi Vail: Well, you have to save a lot of your energy for the stage.

‍

Beth Ditto: Yes Tobi. Yes.

‍

Tobi Vail: Honestly you do. You do. You have to be the extrovert. I learned that when I went from being the drummer in Bikini Kill who sang a couple songs to then being in The Frumpies where I had to like, be the front person. And I was like, Oh, my God. Give me a break. Like, I can't deal with any bullshit, any extra work. I think if you're a singer you really do have to conserve your energy because you've got to be so extroverted. I mean maybe it comes natural to you. 

‍

Beth Ditto: Well, yeah. Well, I think ADD is a real plus in that sense. I really do. Because it also is a negative because you don't remember to go back and load in. [laughs] I don't think people really understand that. It wasn't that I meant to, it was just that I fully forgot. I walked away and forgot about it. It's interesting because I try not to be too easy on singers sometimes. Like I'm always like, "Come on guys, come on, come on." But that could be the Southerness in me. But also yeah, I think The Frumpies is another band. I swear to God, Nathan would tell us Frumpies was coming to play in Searcy. We'd all get so excited. And then--

‍

Tobi Vail: It was probably never gonna happen.

‍

 Beth Ditto: No, it was never gonna happen. I mean, no way. But yeah one of my favorite memories, this is just a tangent-- There was a mixtape that had all these songs on it, but my favorite thing was just Kathy and Jeri, just drums and Kathy singing "Deliberate Indifference." And it's like one of my favorite songs of all time. That's one of my favorite songs of all time because I'm such a softy. It's so beautiful. YouTube tomorrow. It's like so good. Who wrote "I stopped talking--" What's the name of that song? 

‍

Tobi Vail: Which one? 

‍

Beth Ditto: [sings] I stopped talking an hour ago--

‍

Tobi Vail: Oh, that's the Bikini Kill song.

‍

Beth Ditto: Yeah, I knew that but who wrote it?

‍

Tobi Vail: We all wrote it. We all wrote it together. 

‍

Beth Ditto: All the words and everything? 

‍

Tobi Vail: Um, I probably wrote-- I think pretty much whoever was singing wrote the words in that band. But you know a lot of the songs came from conversations we were having so I consider it all a group effort.

‍

Beth Ditto: Yeah. Wow.

‍

Tobi Vail: I don't know. But wait, let's see. I should go back to my questions. We've just been talking. 

‍

Beth Ditto: I will do that. 

‍

Tobi Vail: No, it's okay. I went off the script too. 

‍

So we're doing a little bit about The Gossip. So it was Kathy. What's Kathy's last name? 

‍

Beth Ditto: Mendonca. 

‍

Tobi Vail: Mendonca. Nathan-- 

‍

Beth Ditto: Howdeshell.

‍

Tobi Vail: Howdeshell. Beth Ditto. And then, where did you guys practice?

‍

Beth Ditto: Oh, in our basement. We lived in Percival House so we'd practice in the basement. Kathy was always the one to keep a job and so she was always the one that had more like stable-- Not really actually now that I think about it. We all had houses but we lived in apartments and she lived in a house with her boyfriend and so like she had a basement. But in the very beginning we lived on the west side on Percival up the hill. And so we started there and practiced there and then that just kind of fell apart because houses do. And then we moved downtown and Kathy moved out east a little bit.

‍

Tobi Vail: Yeah, I think I remember that Kill Rock Stars was over--

‍

Beth Ditto: Yeah, across the alley.

‍

Tobi Vail: On Quince or--

‍

Beth Ditto: Yes. Do you remember? It was on Quince. I was right on 4th. We lived across the alley and I would just come over sometimes.

‍

Tobi Vail: Yeah, I just remember Nathan. I met Nathan first and he just knocked on the door of Kill Rock Stars. Which you know, sometimes people did but not that often. Usually if someone was coming by, we knew they were coming by or we knew who they were. So this kid from Arkansas just like knocked on the door. He always would come by and just give us some new tapes of music that he'd just made. And, you know, that's how I knew who he was. And then I remember because it was our work, so we would go to lunch across the street at Subway sandwiches and some of you were working there, right?  

‍

Beth Ditto: Me and Kathy. 

‍

Tobi Vail: Yeah. And then, at one point, the way I remember it is Nathan was like, "I'm in a new band," and it was The Gossip. And I could be making this up, but I was like, "Oh, those are the Subway Sandwich Girls." [laughs] I don't know if I met you guys before that or not but that's how I remember it. It's just like, "You know, those girls, those really nice girls who work at Subway, they're in the band."

‍

Beth Ditto: I cannot wait to tell Kathy that story. She's gonna die.

‍

Tobi Vail: I just really thought you guys were extraordinarily great from the very beginning. 

‍

Beth Ditto: Thank you. 

‍

Tobi Vail: And I remember, I wanted to sign you guys to Kill Rock Stars and I was working there and it was not my label, but you know they would listen to our opinions. But you put out the record on K Records first, right?

‍

Beth Ditto: Yes, well, we put out a 7" on K. Let me just say it this way-- I know this sounds so horrible. Calvin had always been perfectly nice to us and everybody's always been perfectly nice to us. I met him as a teenager. I don't really remember a lot about meeting him,  I remember more Chris. But all I knew is that I knew that Kill Rock Stars felt cooler to me. And like I said, I didn't know, except for-- And maybe it was the logo. I didn't know the history of K, I didn't really know the history of Kill Rock Stars but I knew the bands that I really loved were all on Kill Rock Stars. But I had, not Dig Me Out. I had one Sleater-Kinney CD, I had all these mixtapes with all these people on it and all the bands I really loved were on that label. And so that's the label I wanted to be on.  

‍

But Nathan, he wants us to do this, and so we will. And I think this was the first place that asked. Especially for us, we really came from a place where we were like, "This is never going to happen again. You better get it while you can." Or like just, "Wow, they're asking us?! Really?" Like, so we did it. And it was fun and whatever, but then, I think we felt really bad because-- I remember feeling really pissed off at Calvin because nobody ever asked us, me or Kathy. He just asked Nathan and I was like, Fuck off. Like, Why wouldn't you ask us? Why wouldn't you sit down and be like, what's going on? Later I could feel differently about it. But I remember back then being 18, 19 at the most being like, Why didn't he ask me and Kathy? Why did you have to ask just Nathan? 

‍

Tobi Vail: I mean, yeah to be fair, like it does make a little bit-- Since Kill Rock Stars was a little bit more feminist at the time, we would have never just gone through the guy. [laughs]

‍

Beth Ditto: At the time? Exactly. 

‍

Tobi Vail: At the time yeah. 

‍

Beth Ditto: And that was the thing. I was learning more about people and that was-- I don't think-- The timeline could be all mixed up. It was 20 years ago but I don't remember if that 7" was even out before we went on tour or anything.

‍

Tobi Vail: I don't remember either.

‍

Beth Ditto: I don't know. But I knew when Kill Rock Stars was interested-- Maggie's talked to me about that, we talked about it before too. I love Maggie. I love that I got to go on my first tour ever with Maggie. That's one of my favorite stories ever. I have a picture of that night and it is bonkers. We were all staying at Shawn Tillman's house, all of us, Bangs and Gossip and it was just-- After driving that whole crazy drive to Minneapolis and it was just mayhem. You've never seen anything like it. I'm glad I got to be with her from that day.

‍

Tobi Vail: That's a really long drive too.

‍

Beth Ditto: Yeah, it was. I remember thinking, We're gonna die out here. This is it guys. There's nothing. Because you go through Montana and you're just like, Please God let there be gas. 

‍

Tobi Vail: Yeah that's for sure. 

‍

Beth Ditto: And that's the thing. None of us knew what to do. None of us knew how to book a tour. None of us knew. Anyway. But yeah.  

‍

So we wanted to be on Kill Rock Stars, won't lie. Then Nathan said we'd go with K, which we were grateful for and we did. But then when Kill Rock Stars asked us we were like "Peace Out. This is what we want to do." And also it was a little bit like, You should have talked to us about it. Why didn't you talk to us? Like, If you had talked to us you would have known. And I was like, Just because you put out a 7" does that mean you have to be on that label now? 

‍

Tobi Vail: Yeah 

‍

Beth Ditto: Yeah. And also like I was too shy to like even-- I'm not a shy person, but especially at the time I was really really self conscious about anything. I felt like I didn't know the language. I felt like I didn't know the difference enough about  bands or the politics of all of that to even get involved, but I knew what I wanted to be on.

‍

Tobi Vail: So you guys are on tour with Sleater-Kinney and then you just kept touring.

‍

Beth Ditto: The whole tour. Can you believe it?

‍

Tobi Vail: They asked you to do the whole tour. I guess we should say for people who don't know, that doesn't ever happen. An established band never takes a brand new band on a whole tour even if they are labelmates. That just never happens. And I think it speaks to like, how powerful your band was.

‍

Beth Ditto:  I mean, maybe. Or how crazy they were. Carrie, God bless Carrie. Like honestly, all of them. I have to say all of them. But Carrie, I'll never be able to speak highly enough of her in the way that, like she made sure we were taken care of the whole time. I would have to ask her. I wonder if she knew how little we really knew. You know? Like, they could have told us anything and we'd have been like, "Absolutely!" "Well you know, first bands don't get paid." I'd be like, "Okay, bye." I had no idea.

‍

Tobi Vail: When she first started she didn't know any of that either, you know?

‍

Beth Ditto: That's true, yeah. 

‍

Tobi Vail: Probably just helping you out. 

‍

Beth Ditto: Yeah, I hope so. I hope that she never regretted it in the middle of it. And that's what I think sometimes. I'm so sorry, because we were so excited too. We were just so happy, you know?

‍

Tobi Vail: I think that's just like part of the Olympia tradition in a way of like, you try to use your resources to help the younger generation or get them access to what you learned. It can be a very encouraging, supportive place.

‍

Beth Ditto: Well for me I don't know. It's like there were two worlds in a way. There were a few different little micro worlds in Olympia for me. But as far as music went, I think everyone was so great to us. And we were so lucky. I feel like it was such a good powerful time. Because I feel like when we got there too, people would talk about the heyday of this or that or like whatever and like they'd be like, "Oh, this is over. That's over." And you would just be like, "But there's something still happening." 

‍

Tobi Vail: Right. That's still happening. Right now just down the street there's all these shows with like teenagers. 

‍

Beth Ditto: Yes exactly.

‍

Tobi Vail: And you know, there's always new kids. 

‍

Beth Ditto: Always.

‍

Tobi Vail: And you know, people grow up and they miss what they had before but there's something new for the next generation. 

‍

Beth Ditto: That makes me really happy. I wish I could be around that energy more.

‍

Tobi Vail: When you lived here, do you remember were all the shows all ages? Or were they over 21? Because you were young.

‍

Beth Ditto: Yeah. We were really young.

‍

Tobi Vail: Do you remember there being any shows that you couldn't get into? 

‍

Beth Ditto: No. [joking] I think they were all 21 and over. Every one of them. 

‍

Tobi Vail: They were all all-ages? 

‍

Beth Ditto: I don't think we played our first 21 and over show, I could be wrong, until way later because we were really adamant about that, especially since none of us could get in. We like couldn't stay and see a band play or couldn't go in early. 

‍

Tobi Vail: Yeah, I'm kind of wondering when that changed here because now the all ages shows are mostly kind of more underground and unlicensed, although they have some at Le Voyuer in the backroom. Was Le Voyuer around when you lived here?

‍

Beth Ditto: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was. Yeah. It was new. It was around. Maybe a couple of years in maybe?

‍

Tobi Vail: Yeah, because they can have all ages shows in the backroom there.

‍

Beth Ditto: Yeah, we played there a couple times but not a lot. The places that we played a lot, the most--

‍

59:02

Tobi Vail: You played the Capitol Theatre.

‍

Beth Ditto: Capitol Theater. Some of the best times of my life.

‍

Tobi Vail: Capitol Theatre backstage and front stage.

‍

Beth Ditto: Yeah. Oh, that was a big one. That was a really big one. There's pictures of me and my first girlfriend Melanie in front watching Cat Power at Ladyfest like this. [laughs] Like, just waiting. So excited.

‍

Tobi Vail: Can you talk a little bit about your memories of Ladyfest? Were you part of organizing it?

‍

Beth Ditto: I was not. 

‍

Tobi Vail: You've played it? Or you attended it?

‍

Beth Ditto: We did. We played it. That was really fun. We played at Thekla. I remember that's kind of when I learned that-- There were a couple of things that had popped up and I was like, I am not meant to be an organizer. I can't even sit through this thing. Even now people are like, "Oh, you should take this class, you should take that class," and I'm like, I can't imagine having to be somewhere at the same time at the same week or keep up with that. I didn't understand it at the time, but I really learned that I was not to be relied on. You couldn't rely on me. I didn't know those words, but-- And I beat myself up for it for a while, but now I don't. I'm just like, Well, that is not something I'm good at. Moving on. But yeah, everybody I knew was working for it, working on it, doing something. But I was probably up at Bagel Brothers.

‍

Tobi Vail: On Ladyfest.

‍

Beth Ditto: Yeah. And then Homo a Gogo.

‍

Tobi Vail: Ladyfest was unpaid labor. It was something you had to have time and energy to volunteer on so if you were spending all your time working to pay your rent, you might not have a lot of time leftover.

‍

Beth Ditto: Even if I did have time, it's not something I'm good at. Yeah, I'm just not somebody you could rely on for things like that. Like if you wanted me to make you dinner and bring it to you, absolutely. 

‍

Tobi Vail: So did you guys book your own shows? Or did you have a booking agent?

‍

Beth Ditto: Well, at first Kathy did it all. Then like I say we were probably the luckiest, most privileged band in the beginning. It's like when I talk about how Gossip, our first tour ever was Sleater-Kinney. Our first booking agent ever was Sonic Youth's booking agent, who quit us because he was like, "I don't know if y'all are going to be a band in the next couple of weeks or not." Because we were children and we were also trying to balance being in a band with paying our rent, which felt so impossible, so hard. I mean, as we all know. Like what do you do? 

‍

Tobi Vail: Yeah. 

‍

Beth Ditto: And Kathy was somebody who really valued stability over being in a band. And to me stability was not a thing. Like it's not something I ever had really. So I was really comfortable with living on the fly. And Nathan too. I think for Kathy, she just really needed that in her life and so every time it would come up to go on tour or whatever, she-- Anyway, that's a whole other thing. 

‍

But yeah, so our first booking agent was Bob-- What was his name? 

‍

Tobi Vail: Oh, I can't remember his name.

‍

Beth Ditto: Very very east coast accent I remember. But he was Sonic Youth's booking agent and we thought that was crazy. And so there was that. And then after him, we had another person. But then Natalie tried to be our tour manager but we didn't even know what a tour manager was. 

‍

Tobi Vail: Right. 

‍

Beth Ditto: That was really weird. And then we were like, "I don't remember having this conversation." Once again I feel like that was a Nathan conversation. And then getting handed the booklet and being like, I don't know what this is. Like, that kind of stuff.

‍

Tobi Vail: Oh, like your tour itinerary?

‍

Beth Ditto: Yeah, like no idea. I don't remember if we had one with Sleater-Kinney and if we did, I don't remember it. 

‍

Tobi Vail: Probably not. You were probably just doing it all yourself.

‍

Beth Ditto: Yeah. Being like, where do we show up tomorrow? I mean, they answered our questions constantly. Bless their hearts. I remember in New York we didn't have anywhere to go. And then we were gonna stay with people. And then Carrie was like, "Y'all can stay in my hotel room." All four of us in her hotel, bless her heart. Just so nice. And even then, so our first tour was staying in hotels with Carrie. Like, so lucky. It's like a completely different world. So I feel like we were just straight to the moon. You know, booking things ourselves as far as things go and advancing shows, it's like Kathy always did everything. Kathy did everything.

‍

Tobi Vail: Do you remember playing the front stage of the Capitol Theater when you lived here? Did you do that after you had moved away and came back? Like at Yoyo or Homo a Go Go?

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Beth Ditto: Definitely not at Yoyo. No, I don't think we did play at the front stage when we were there at all.

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Tobi Vail: It's funny because Bikini Kill had never played the front stage until like a couple months ago. [laughs] We just weren't big in Olympia like we were in other places. And I don't--

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Beth Ditto: Really? In my mind, y'all were like the ultimate band.

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Tobi Vail: I mean I think probably people who live here have a different opinion. But you know when you go on tour, and you're like, Oh, we can sell out CBGB or just like a big club or whatever. And then you come home and you have to play the Red House, which is fine. [laughs] We would always be like, "Can we pay the front stage?" Like Fugazi gets to play the front stage. In DC we would play the same size venue that Fugazi would play. You come to Olympia you have to play smaller places.

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Beth Ditto: Because you couldn't get enough people to come to the show? 

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Tobi Vail: Maybe the scene was just smaller, but it just felt weird to us that we had to only-- You know what? That's not true. We did play the Capitol Theater front stage opening for Fugazi. 

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Beth Ditto: Okay. Okay. 

‍

Tobi Vail: And then I was like, "Why can't we play headlining?" [laughs] You know what I mean. You know what I mean. I'm not ashamed to say that we were very ambitious.

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Beth Ditto: No, don't. You should never be. You know there was so much shame about that.

‍

Tobi Vail: We wanted to headline you know? 

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Beth Ditto: Yeah. I love that. I wish honestly there was more talk about that because I felt so-- This is just a wild thing to imagine, but I felt so deeply removed and still do from any of the successes, whatever you call them, that Gossip had and have. Because I felt I could not enjoy it. I had guilt about it. Not just from survival guilt, you know, like from coming out of poverty in Arkansas, but like, actual-- There was the thing that I felt like in order for, like-- I don't know. Like it wasn't cool to do it or I don't know exactly the words. Or like always thinking about other bands that weren't that-- I don't know, it's just like, we're not all going to be Dead Moon. It's almost like I felt bad that we weren't doing horrible. You know? I would have guilt over like having that--

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Tobi Vail: That's unfortunate because you guys became a great pop band. [laughs] You had success as a pop band like Blondie or something like that you know? Like on that level some of your songs actually became hits.

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Beth Ditto: Yeah, weirdly.

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Tobi Vail: Coming out of an underground scene.

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Beth Ditto: I'll have you know, if it was up to me those songs would have been left off the album every time. It never failed. Oh my god, the biggest song in the fancy world, like charts and shit like that Gossip had, I begged them to leave off the album. I hated them so much. 

Tobi Vail: That's funny. That's kind of ironic. But you know it is. It makes me sad that you can't enjoy that success though but it does make sense because in the '90s there was kind of a backlash against major labels. There was definitely a major label versus independent label thing.

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Beth Ditto: Definitely, yeah.

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Tobi Vail: And it was a very political thing. And then you came to Olympia way after Nirvana had had their terrible tragedy of you know--

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Beth Ditto: Yeah.

‍

Tobi Vail: Becoming a number one band and then this horrible tragedy that happened when our friends got famous. I think people associated those things together. Like people didn't see it as a positive thing.

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Beth Ditto: And it makes complete sense. And also to lose somebody you think, not literally, but to like-- [For] someone to go into a different arena than you, no pun intended, but to get to a different level of whatever it is. And to me it was always like a state of mind. It's like, there's a lot of privilege that comes with that. White privilege, the passing privilege, you know able-- But all of these things. I'm just like, it's so easy for me to say, "Well if I can do it, so can you." But I really felt like that in a way that I was like, "Well, I'm garbage." I never let myself have good things.  I never let myself have a good feeling. 

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Tobi Vail: But that's not true because think about it. Carrie and I talked about this too. Like when you saw that Elliott Smith concert he was on another level. His talent and his command in that room was a little bit different than you know, I don't want to name anyone but like-- 

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Beth Ditto: You do. [laughs] 

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Tobi Vail: But someone else with an acoustic guitar didn't have that ability. And I think the same is true for your voice really. 

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Beth Ditto: That's really nice.

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Tobi Vail: Like you really have a real gift.

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Beth Ditto: Thank you. I mean, thank you. I just feel that's very sweet. It's just a shame. I wish that this was talked about more I think within that-- I guess that's the thing is that like this breaks off into another thing and here we are talking about Olympia but-- 

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I always wanted so bad, I was telling this to Teddy the other day, all I wanted in my 20s when so much stuff was happening and Gossip was-- Like the NME Cool List voted me their coolest person in music or something like that in 2007. Didn't know what the Cool List was. No idea. Never even heard of it, never read the NME, whatever. And then that changed my life in this crazy way. 

‍

And all I wanted was a feminist mentor. That's all I wanted. And I felt like I didn't have one. And so like, I would try to reach out to people but it was so hard. You know, it was really deep. Like I was like, I need someone to talk to about this. I don't know how to do this and be healthy and sane. Luckily, I never really had a pension for drinking for real and like drugs. I felt so grateful. But that was really tough. I still feel like it's really tough. And like just talking to you right now, it feels so much better. I'm just like, I needed this so bad. You know, I really did. I needed it so bad. And it just makes me wonder if there are other people that are feeling that way. You just feel out on a limb. Because people you're around don't get you. You're not like talking to like Kings of Leon and they're like, "Totally girlfriend. Like girl, I get you." [laughs]

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Tobi Vail: Yeah, there is something about coming from the underground and then going into the mainstream. It's always gonna be difficult, you know? 

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Beth Ditto: It's lonely. Yes. And like, you feel like you're losing people or something too.

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Tobi Vail: Right. Because in Olympia you had more of a community and then I think in a way then that separates you from your community. And it's like not necessarily-- That's not what you were choosing.

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Beth Ditto:  No, no, nothing like that. It's just funny. It was like, I felt like if I had graduated college and had this insanely academic career and had a doctorate or something like that, it would have been so celebrated. And then I always tell people, this is kind of all I had. It was this or hairdressing. In my mind, that was it. And this came second. This was just an option later, you know. 

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But Olympia, back to Olympia, is what gave me-- If I had not gone to Olympia, I don't imagine what other thing would have made me feel good. You know, I felt good. I felt for the first time in my life I felt like things were going to be okay. You know, I was safe. I felt safe there. I really did. I didn't have that growing up. I don't think any of us did honestly. You know, of the three of us. But yeah. It was amazing.

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Tobi Vail: We're getting close to wrapping this up. So I just wanted to touch on a little bit of--

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Beth Ditto: Also, I just want to say if you come up with clearer questions, and you want to email them to me, and we can have more down to point I can. We can do it again or whatever.

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Tobi Vail: No, no. This conversation has gone great. I only had like 10 questions and we've hit on almost every single topic without me even having to ask the question so don't worry. There's like a couple more left that I wanted to specifically see if you had any memories about Ladyfest, Homo a Go Go or The Transfused that you wanted to share. 

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Beth Ditto: Oh, god. Yes. 

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Tobi Vail: What was The Transfused for people who don't know, from your point of view?

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Beth Ditto: The Transfused was a queer rock opera. That was dystopian, post-apocalyptic, the fall of capitalism, and what it's like, from what I understand. Written by Nomy Lamm and The Need, I think was written by them. Those three, I could be wrong. I'd never been in a fat positive scene before. Ever. And I was somebody who had been fat my whole life. I just want to say that. Like this was not a new thing to me. Like I didn't gain weight one day. So literally never in my life had I been treated with the same respect I feel like my thin friends did until I moved to Olympia and that was insane. And that's another thing I think that made me feel like I could be in a band. So I just want to say that. And I would say that because of Nomy Lamm.

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They wrote this. They put on this crazy rock opera that like everything that was Olympia was like super from the ground up. It was hands-on. It was community. It wasn't like there was any crazy funding. I mean I don't know if anybody even got a grant. I don't know. But there was choreography and it was a full on rock opera. And it did really great. It did really great. My best friend was in it. I ran, personally, out of the audition. Once again, I'm not the kind of person that you're going to want me to do steps in the same way every single time because I'm not going to do it. So I literally screamed-- My best friend Jeri was like "I'll audition if you audition." And I was like, "Cool, totally. Got this. Can do." Ran out of the audition. It was at the Midnight Sun. And he stayed and did it and then became one of the biggest, brightest stand-out parts of that show. He did so great. And the music was incredible. God, everybody we knew was in that thing. Do you remember trying to hang out with people? And they'd be like, "No, I have Transfused practice." Everybody was in that show. Everybody.

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Tobi Vail: For sure. And everyone who wasn't in it was a Ladyfest organizer. [laughs] Because it was the same year.

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Beth Ditto: Y'all really kept everybody really. It really was a very strange year of no one could hang out. Except for me because I wasn't working Ladyfest and I--

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Tobi Vail: You would be hanging out when you were organizing the stuff or at practice or whatever. But yeah, so what did you do during that time?

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Beth Ditto: What did I do? I worked. I think during Transfused, where was I working? God knows. Nathan used to call me the professional job destroyer because of course like I would get a fast food job, go on tour, quit it for tour, come back, get another fast food job. So I don't know how many jobs I had in Olympia. But yeah, so I was probably working. But everybody was doing Ladyfest or Transfused and there was so much crossover. Everybody was doing either one or the other or both. Oh I just think about that time. Ladyfest was-- Ladyfest came around--

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Tobi Vail: That was the first one, year 2000.

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Beth Ditto: Yep, I remember thinking that I actually got to be around for something really, really special. And all of my friends that I had been lucky to meet through music were all talking about doing one in their town already. You know? What I remember the most is everyone being really busy. And because I was just so hands-off about it. [laughs]

‍

Tobi Vail: Do you remember any of the shows? You mentioned Cat Power.

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Beth Ditto: Cat Power? God, if I think about it, if I go back. Bratmobile? That was Ladyfest right? Bratmobile?

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Tobi Vail: What do you remember about Bratmobile?

‍

Beth Ditto: Outrageous. That night, that Bratmobile night, was one of the funnest nights of my life. Literally one of the funnest nights of my life.

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Tobi Vail: What do you remember about it?

‍

Beth Ditto: Just being around because everyone was in a really, really fucking excited mood. And it was the first Ladyfest. I think people could actually let their hair down a little bit. And we were like, "We pulled it off." So there was that. And then I think there was the Bratmobile reunion. So here's the thing about Batmobile, it's all or nothing. There's nobody that says, "I kind of like Bratmobile." Either people love them or they do not, there is no in between. So it was just full of people who were like, ready to go. And it went off. That's what I remember.

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Tobi Vail: I feel like they might have played with the Prima Donnas.

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Beth Ditto: Was that Ladyfest?

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Tobi Vail: That actually must have been Yoyo a Go Go right?

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Beth Ditto: Otto was my last cis boy crush. Otto was my last cis boy crush.

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Tobi Vail: The Prima Donnas had like a air mattress that was like the lady mosh pit air mattress so that no ladies would get groped. So that's why I was thinking it was at Ladyfest, but it must have been Yoyo. [laughs] 

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Beth Ditto: Also I feel like I saw Prima Donnas at Yoyo.

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Tobi Vail: Yeah, it must have been Yoyo. Yeah, that's what I was saying. It's hard to keep it all straight in my mind, you know?

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Beth Ditto: Yeah, there's so many. I mean, that whole era. Like especially when you add Homo a Gogo to it and Transfused and all that stuff. Seeing Prima Donnas I remember number one, I thought they were British for years. Like not years, but for a very long time. I really had no idea. 

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Tobi Vail: They were from Sussex UK. [laughs] They spoke in English accents.

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Beth Ditto: Yeah. I know. I know. God that was-- See? That is the other thing that I wish people could understand about Olympia too, is that there's one thing-- It's like people-- For the way that you would walk into like-- I should say this but I don't know if it's gonna sound like-- What is it like? When you contradict yourself? And I don't know if I'm gonna contract myself from earlier, but once you kind of like found your groove in Olympia-- Because a lot of that's coming from you, right? You're really self-conscious. You don't know who to talk to. You're with your small-town friends. You think you're a bumpkin and you are. But then you meet all these people and they are the fucking funniest people you're ever gonna meet again in your life. I remember like, oh my god, Ricky Line. There's so many funny people. And especially like that Otto was so funny. I remember going on tour with Otto. And it was always my job to be in the front. I still call him Otto. [laughs]

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Tobi Vail: I do too.

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Beth Ditto: Being on tour with him and sitting in the front seat and because I didn't have a driver's license having to be the one that always gave directions. And just laughing until tears came out of my eyes. And then between him and Nathan, it was just like-- Was Zack Carlson? Tiffany? Nobody will ever be able to understand-- You've been in Olympia that whole time, but was there ever a more hilarious group of people in the world to ever live in Olympia than in that period?

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Tobi Vail: No, that was a really funny time. And, you know, Jason Traeger's funny. Carrie is really funny. She's got a dry sense of humor but it's very sharp.

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Beth Ditto: Very sharp. I used to be like, Carrie-- 

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Tobi Vail: You're really funny. You're also really funny. 

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Beth Ditto: No. Thank you, that's very kind. I don't think that's true. I think I like to laugh and people mix that up. I feel like I'm a very good audience for comedy, but I'm not, I don't like--

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Tobi Vail: Or maybe you just riff off of other people.

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Beth Ditto: I just like to laugh at them. God I wish I could think of the funny-- I just remember laughing so hard, like in tears every day. Joe Preston? The weirdest, most random person to be actually really hilarious. They're really really funny. 

‍

Tobi Vail: For sure. 

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Beth Ditto: Do people know this hotbed of comedy that is the Olympia feminist scene? Do they though?

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Tobi Vail: I don't know if you knew Jared Warren when you lived here. Jared is really funny.

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Beth Ditto: God I used to beg him, I was like "Can we please do a cover of Tramp together?" I thought we should do a cover of Tramp. This is my idea about Tight Bros if you will, is that we should start an all-female one called Tight Bras from Way Back When and just do Tight Bros covers.

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Tobi Vail: That is really funny. Yeah, I forgot about Tight Bros from Way Back When. They were around then. They were big.

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Beth Ditto: They were huge. That was one of my favorite shows to go to.  God I loved oh, Jesse Frances. Jesse Fucking Frances.

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Tobi Vail: Frenchie and the Germany Girls?

‍

Beth Ditto: Oh my god, Bridget Irish. Comedy on legs. 

‍

Tobi Vail: For sure. So we only have about five minutes left. 

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Beth Ditto: Sorry.

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Tobi Vail: No, it's okay. Do you remember anything about Homo a Gogo?

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Beth Ditto: Oh god yeah. 

‍

Tobi Vail: What do you remember about that?

‍

Beth Ditto: Do you know what my favorite memory-- This is not about-- This will sum it up. I think this is such a good example of Olympia. I remember it was pissing rain, Homo a Gogo, everybody was kind of dwindling around because you know how everybody during every festival just loved to hang out in that alleyway around the back door, the load-in door? 

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Tobi Vail: At the Capitol Theater.

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Beth Ditto: At the Capitol Theater. Some of the funniest shit of all time has gone on in that alleyway. It's so funny. Oh man, remember Binah and they were in that band called Birth Control? [laughs] When Nathan was in Zombie Beat and then he bit that taco sauce down in my eyeball and I basically got pepper sprayed. Anyway. For real, the funniest times.

‍

But I remember it was the second to last night at Homo a Go Go. It was dark and just pissing rain. And I remember there were some speakers and I don't remember why they were outside, but they were like PA speakers. Or maybe they weren't outside yet. I remember that things were dwindling down, the night was dwindling down and then all of a sudden-- Do you know that song by Nina Hagen, was it "Born in 66? XIXAX?" 

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Tobi Vail: I don't remember the specific song. 

‍

Beth Ditto: [DITTO sings tune] Anyway, I love that song. It came on and I just remember being like, "Oh. My. God." It's like I could hear it at home anytime but hearing it in the street was really exciting. And I remember just starting to dance to that. And then at that moment everybody on the PA speakers, they turned them around. It was raining in the street and then all of a sudden it was just this crazy dance party in front of the Capitol Theater. Like everybody in the road, not even in the alleyway. And I think that really sums up Olympia to me in those years of my life. It was like anything could happen at any time. Everybody was in this really like-- Sure we were having some serious traumas and things were crazy and changing all the time. And it was a weird time, but like, there was something special about Olympia, for me, my experience. There was so much fun, hilarious shit going on and at any minute there could just be an outrageous dance party. And do you remember that too? We danced a lot back then.

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Tobi Vail: Yeah for sure a lot of dance parties. And your shows were like dance parties. That was what was so fun about The Gossip is you could dance to your music. 

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Beth Ditto: We loved dancing.

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Tobi Vail: As much as I loved Unwound and other bands around, especially that era of Unwound like you would go there and you would stand in a room with other people. [laughs] You know what I mean? Which is a different kind of experience. But like The Gossip, everyone would be dancing. That was really cool.

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Beth Ditto: I think that was cool. And I think that was the thing about the bands at that time is there was a lot of like, encouragement to dance and have fun and let it go. And that was so fun. God that was fun. But like also no one was a fucking DJ yet. No one was doing it for a living. But do you remember you DJ-ed my birthday?.

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Tobi Vail: I do and everyone wanted to hear Missy Elliott and I was just playing all these different versions of "Louie Louie" on like a toy little record player. [laughs] Like, "I'm just gonna play "Louie Louie" by every band [from] every 45 I had.

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Beth Ditto: That's actually a great concept. My friend went to Safeway and stole a bag of soil and brought it back. That was one of the craziest nights of my life. Like, yeah, everybody was DJing but they weren't doing it because-- It wasn't a cool thing to do. It was just like, we all just wanted to dance. It felt so fun.

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Tobi Vail: Yeah it was. It was just, you know, like a group of friends making our own entertainment. 

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So you know, things have changed a lot since you lived here. It's 20 years later, or more. You moved away like 2002?

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Beth Ditto: Exactly 20 years.

‍

Tobi Vail: 20 years later. So you know, just like everywhere in the west coast and the northwest, rent is high. 

‍

Beth Ditto: How much is an apartment in Olympia?

‍

Tobi Vail: I don't even want to get into it. It's too expensive. It's expensive. 

‍

Beth Ditto: We don't have to get into it but just tell me a number. Like that apartment where I used to live on 4th Avenue by the Subway. How much would that be right now?

‍

Tobi Vail: I think what they say the median, or average rate is like $1200, $1500, $1600. It's expensive. But you know, there's still people that have $500 apartments, but that's not common. And back then rent was like 100 bucks.

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Beth Ditto: I remember me and Jeri Beard rolling around on the ground when we got that apartment, that apartment on 4th Avenue right there by the Subway, rolling around on the ground because we can't believe that we got our own apartment but we're so freaked out it was gonna be $275 each.

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Tobi Vail: Cheap rent now is under $500. But that's cheap, you know? So like if you're gonna go get a nice apartment, it's going to be more than $1,000 in most cases. And so think about that. Like what it would be like if you had moved here and it had been like that? Thinking about that, what advice would you give to the City of Olympia? Like what can the City of Olympia do to support the music scene? Because in my opinion, we need some help.

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Beth Ditto: I don't know what to tell the City of Olympia. I don't know because I don't know about things like that. I mean obviously you want to give cheap rent. That doesn't seem hard. I guess there's a lot of things that you can put in place to cap certain rents. Like in Portland we got somebody on our council that was really awesome about rent and renters' rights. And then some people were throwing a fit about that too. 

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The only thing I can say is just when I first moved to Olympia, it was me, Aaron Ross, Kathy, Nathan, Joey Casio, so it was like five of us I think. And we were in a two-bedroom house and me and Jeri shared the living room. That was our bedroom with no front door, no nothing. We slept on the pull out couch. And for some reason, we both paid an equal of $100 a person. Everyone don't do that. Don't ever do that. Make your rent according to what room you have. What's that called?

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VAIL: I can't remember. 

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Beth Ditto: Yeah, do that. Don't ever make someone pay $100 to share.

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VAIL: For sleeping on the couch?

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Beth Ditto: For the pull out couch with your best friend who's also paying $100. Not fair. See? Things I just didn't think about. But I don't really know. It always makes me think what's next? You know? I guess I don't know what to tell the City of Olympia but it just seems like it's not hard and to get your shit together. Do they even know that they have this incredible scene in history that they should be really proud of and encouraging and try to make that flourish? Because that's to me, it's like outside of that, it's like, what? You have people in the White House that work in the government building? Who cares. Like, what legacy is that? Very cool. You would think that a place that had this incredible history, it's almost like this mini fucking pocket that's so rare, that doesn't happen. It's like, where else can you think of? Like Boise? I don't know, Bright Eyes? Where are they from? I don't know. But how often does that happen? And why wouldn't you try to preserve that, appreciate that, and encourage that for the future? I don't get it.

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VAIL: Yeah and I think that this project is a really positive thing because it's having people from the community document the history for the future, but also for people who weren't around back then to hear stories like the ones that you've been sharing. And that creates some kind of value around the experience for people who didn't have access to that information. Because not everyone even knows that this happened. 

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Beth Ditto: Absolutely not.

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VAIL: Someone might hear a Gossip song like on a TV show or a movie and not know that that band started down the street. You know what I mean?

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Beth Ditto: Yeah right. I think that's the thing about Olympia. I think with Gossip we always, for me I always wanted to make Olympia a really huge part of the story because without it none of us would have the life that we have now. None of us. We wouldn't be in Portland. Kathy wouldn't be a counselor of a middle school. Those things wouldn't have happened. 

‍

And I remember saying this, I remember thinking it then, I don't know if people really realize how special for whatever reason-- Again, it makes me feel like fate or whatever it is, drew me to Olympia, because I think if I had gone to a bigger city, had I gone to a different part of the country, I don't think it would have happened anywhere near the same. I know it wouldn't have. Everything was just right. I don't know. But I hope they do that. I hope they do listen to this and realize how special it is.

‍

No matter what we're always going to be living with a lot of people, no matter how cheap your rent is. [laughs] You're going to be living with a house full of people in the beginning. Get used to it honey.

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VAIL: For sure. I think that's a good note to end on. Do you have anything that you'd like to add to the story? We've been talking for a long time.

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Beth Ditto: Oh my gosh. I don't know. Do I have anything I'd like to add to this story? I don't know.

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VAIL: Any memories or bands that didn't come up? Memories of people or insights that you have that you would like to share with people?

‍

Beth Ditto: I remember one time I thought I met Morrisey. Because I didn't know who Morrisey was but this one kid was being Morrisey for Halloween. This was a long time ago. And I came home from a party and I told my friend I'd met Morrisey that night and she thought I was kidding and I was like, "No, I did." And she thought I was crazy. She thought I'd lost my mind. It turns out that I didn't know he was just being Morrisey for Halloween. That's a true story. I thought I had literally met Morrisey and coming to tell my friends and they were like, "No you fucking didn't." They were talking about the Smiths and was like, "Da da da Morrisey." And I was like, "Oh my god! I met that guy." And they must have thought I was crazy. I remember because he had a branch sticking out of his pocket because he was trying to do the flower thing but it was a dramatic version of it. It was like a whole branch that he was dragging behind him. And I was like, "Now this is an eccentric human." He just said he was Morrisey. Believed. I had no idea. So I thought I'd met Morrisey for a good 6 hours. But who knows? Olympia, I don't know. I'll think about it. 

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VAIL: I wonder where that guy is now. 

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Beth Ditto: I could pick him out. He was at parties a lot. He was very much a garage rocker. He wore leather jackets when it was cool to wear leather jackets. Craig? He was such a sweet one. Isn't he a logger now?

‍

VAIL: Craig?

‍

Beth Ditto: Craig. 

‍

VAIL: Craig Extine? He's married, he has a kid. He lives in Canada and he's a counselor. 

‍

Beth Ditto: Can I hold everybody's kids? That should have been my job. I should have been the nanny, the Olympia nanny. I would have been so good at that job. 

‍

VAIL: You're good at everything. You were good at Subway sandwiches-- [laughs]

‍

Beth Ditto: Apparently not. The Subway Sisters. I cannot wait to tell Kathy that. Also I worked at Batdorf & Bronson. The person I'm dating now went in the week I was probably let out on the floor (since they do training before they let you work) and he said that he got the worst latte he's ever had from me.

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VAIL: Well you know, being a barista in the northwest in the '90s was no joke. People had very high standards for their coffee. [laughs] 

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Beth Ditto: Yeah. I know.

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VAIL: I was really bad at that job too.

‍

Beth Ditto: Did you work there too?

‍

VAIL: No, I worked at the Smithfield. I think that was probably done by the time you got here. It was a different café and I was really bad at it. I have ADD too and I could not remember-- Like someone would make an order and I could not remember what they just said. I couldn't remember their face. The information would just be out of my head. I'd be thinking about something else. 

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Beth Ditto: See? This is what's weird. My ADD manifests itself in the most different ways and I think that's why it took me so long to realize I had it. I can remember your face. I'll remember your grandparents. I'll remember your middle name. I'll remember your parents, where you did, what you came from for the rest of your life and my life. I cannot remember how to go from A to B to C physically. It's weird. I'm glad you have ADD too though. How long did it take you to figure that out?

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VAIL: Oh, I found out when I went back to school. When I tried to graduate college I was like 40, and I was like, There's something wrong with my brain. [laughs] But no, I figured it out. It's a lifelong kind of--

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Beth Ditto: It's true. I just really learned about it last year. Or no, during Covid I learned about it. I was like, Wait. That's what's going on? Never knew.  

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VAIL: Well, thank you so much for your time. 

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Beth Ditto: Thank you.

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